Are all 420HCs created equal?

N

Nursie

Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
98
Hi All
I've been a long time lurker
Now I could really do with the advice of the collective mind of the group
I'm torn between a Buck 301 and a Case Trapper
Now i know that Tru Sharp is 420HC, I really like the Trapper, but can't find one in CV (this would be my preferred Case steel)
Which is likely to be a better form of 420?
Are they too close to tell any noticeable difference?
Thanks in advance for your help and guidance
Take care
Graham
 
Case hardens Tru-Sharp to 55-56
Buck hardens 420HC to 58-59.

To me the difference is noticeable in use.

That does not keep me from carrying and using knives in Case Tru-Sharp.
 
Thanks Knarfeng
I like the 301, but I'd prefer a longer blade like a 307
However if the 301 has tougher steel then I think it will get my vote
I like the case CV, I just wasn't sure about their Trusharp
Thanks for your help
Take care
Graham
 
Nursie said:
Hi All
I've been a long time lurker
Now I could really do with the advice of the collective mind of the group
I'm torn between a Buck 301 and a Case Trapper
Now i know that Tru Sharp is 420HC, I really like the Trapper, but can't find one in CV (this would be my preferred Case steel)
Which is likely to be a better form of 420?
Are they too close to tell any noticeable difference?
Thanks in advance for your help and guidance
Take care
Graham
Click to expand...

A Case trapper with CV steel is a standard catalog item. You should find lots of sources for the knife online.
 
supratentorial said:
A Case trapper with CV steel is a standard catalog item. You should find lots of sources for the knife online.
Click to expand...

Hi
Most of the dealers in the UK seem to stock SS over CV
I don't particularly want to get stung by import duty if I order from the net, our customs and excise can.be quite expensive if they decide to look at your package

Thanks for your advice
Take care
Graham
 
In my experience, Queen's 420HC seems to be between Case and Buck for hardness, and have seen their own literature list it as 56-58 HRc.

Edited to add this advertisement with the published hardness numbers.

62d54266-8b49-40b1-ad0a-f36f0b0ab0d9_zps4w8zwwue.jpg~original
 
Last edited:
I have used the 420HC from Buck, Case, and Queen and the Buck seems to hold the best edge. However, in most normal use you will never be able to tell the difference:)
 
Thanks chaps
Looks like I may have to use the motto of a British forum
"Buy both! "
Thanks for your time
Take care
Graham
 
I'm with Ernie, Buck holds the best edge for me. But I choose to carry Case more often, as I'm not much of a fan of the hollow grind in a smaller slip joint knife. Although the edge takes a nice bite, in thicker material, the shoulders wind up causing the blade to bind.
 
Ernie1980 said:
I have used the 420HC from Buck, Case, and Queen and the Buck seems to hold the best edge. However, in most normal use you will never be able to tell the difference:)
Click to expand...

This is essentially my view on 420HC. At slightly higher hardness, the biggest difference I've seen is in the burrs; Buck's are easier to remove, and Case's burrs need more stone work to gently abrade them away, because they won't break off as easily as Buck's burrs. In actual use, I've come to the conclusion that '420HC is 420HC', because most of the wear I've seen is abrasive wear (by cardboard, etc), and one 420HC will have no more wear resistance than another, in that regard; none of them have any significant carbides for it. Any of them seem to need a little tuning up after essentially similar amounts of work in cutting abrasive materials, like heavy cardboard, as the apex will round off from abrasion in cutting them.

I have noticed that Case's 'softer' 420HC is easier to take an extremely fine, shaving edge, and it's ductility seems to allow it to hold on a bit longer without breaking away, maybe needing only a little more stropping in use to realign it, if it rolls a little bit. On the Bucks I've tried to sharpen to the same degree, the edges I've tried to make as hair-popping thin seem to break away a little quicker in use, as is consistent with the Bucks' behavior with burrs.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
This is essentially my view on 420HC. At slightly higher hardness, the biggest difference I've seen is in the burrs; Buck's are easier to remove, and Case's burrs need more stone work to gently abrade them away, because they won't break off as easily as Buck's burrs. In actual use, I've come to the conclusion that '420HC is 420HC', because most of the wear I've seen is abrasive wear (by cardboard, etc), and one 420HC will have no more wear resistance than another, in that regard; none of them have any significant carbides for it. Any of them seem to need a little tuning up after essentially similar amounts of work in cutting abrasive materials, like heavy cardboard, as the apex will round off from abrasion in cutting them.

I have noticed that Case's 'softer' 420HC is easier to take an extremely fine, shaving edge, and it's ductility seems to allow it to hold on a bit longer without breaking away, maybe needing only a little more stropping in use to realign it, if it rolls a little bit. On the Bucks I've tried to sharpen to the same degree, the edges I've tried to make as hair-popping thin seem to break away a little quicker in use, as is consistent with the Bucks' behavior with burrs.


David
Click to expand...

Thanks David
Does Case's 420 cut like their CV?
I really like CV, if their stainless steel is almost as good I'll be thrilled
What hardness is their CV compared to their SS?

Thanks again
Take care
Graham
 
Though Case's CV and TruSharp seem to hold working edges for about the length of time, I've found their CV sharpens to a keen edge almost effortlessly right off the stones and then keeps a bit of a toothy edge longer. Their TruSharp seems to me to only take a form of a polished edge (very sharp though) because it usually requires a Strop. I don't like the type of cutting a polished edges performs as it dulls because it loses its bite faster than an edge that a fine stone leaves.
 
Case has claimed CV a bit harder than their 'Tru-Sharp' stainless, maybe by a couple HRC points (maybe 57-58 for CV, and 55-57 for Tru-Sharp). It sort of makes sense, in that the CV is a higher carbon content, comparable to 1095 at around 1%, give or take, roughly twice what Tru-Sharp (420HC) has for carbon. Since the carbon is primarily what determines how hard the steel can be made via heat treat, it's logical for a maker to take it a bit further in hardness (though many other makers seem to squander the opportunity, with higher carbon steels).

That being said, under typical uses expected of traditional knives, both seem to hold up fairly well. I'd assume CV may do a little better, but Tru-Sharp, to me, is perfectly fine. And as I mentioned, I've really grown to like how Tru-Sharp takes a shaving-sharp edge so easily as compared to most other basic stainless from other makers, and one which can be very easily maintained on a strop as well (white rouge, green compound and bare leather work very well with both). Tru-Sharp takes a high-polished, hair-popping edge very, very well. CV takes most any finish well, though I've really liked it at around ~320-grit or so, with minimal stropping on bare leather to finish.


David

Nursie said:
Thanks David
Does Case's 420 cut like their CV?
I really like CV, if their stainless steel is almost as good I'll be thrilled
What hardness is their CV compared to their SS?

Thanks again
Take care
Graham
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the advice
Looks like I'll be ordering a Trapper tomorrow!
This place is great for helping people like me to decide
Not quite so good for the wallet though!

Thanks again
Take care
Graham
 
The biggest problem with 420HC is the edge rolls easily under pressure versus any other grade of stainless that was commonly used on American cutlery like 440A .Either it be a Leatherman blade,Case,or Buck they all seem to perform the same to me.Except for when Schrade USA was using 420HC in place of their 440A for their Plus Steel in the late 90's/early 2000's.Obviously it dulled quicker than 440A but I had very minimal edge rolling issues with Schrade's 420HC versus everyone else...don't ask me why.
 
Last edited:
Frotier76 said:
The biggest problem with 420HC is the edge rolls easily under pressure versus any other grade of stainless that was commonly used on American cutlery like 440A .Either it be a Leatherman blade,Case,or Buck they all seem to perform the same to me.Except for when Schrade was using 420HC in place of their 440A for their Plus Steel in the late 90's/early 2000's.Obviously it dulled quicker than 440A but had very minimal edge rolling issues with Schrade versus everyone else...don't ask me why.
Click to expand...

Edge rolling is more a heat treat issue; not so much about the steel type. The hardness obtained via heat treat functions primarily to minimize plastic deformation, a.k.a. rolling, denting, etc. That's what allows cutlery to take a fine edge that's also strong and durable. Some examples of 440A and even 440C from less than stellar makers are horrid for edge-rolling (or denting), because it often isn't heat treated to a hardness worthy of the the carbon content. An awful lot of 'inexpensive' knives were made from 440-grade steels back in the 70s/80s/90s, and the bad examples are numerous; just sloppy manufacturing QC, if nothing else. On the flipside of that, Schrade was known to heat treat their older USA blades (1095, 440A) to hardness values approaching 60 HRC, and sometimes even exceeding that value (most likely on their 1095, for those).

Another thing to consider, especially when comparing to Case's more recent blades is, most of the older knives in 440A and 420HC, including those from Camillus and Schrade, are flat grind, versus the thinner hollow grind on most of Case's more recent blades. The geometry behind the edge will impact edge-rolling issues as well.


David
 
Last edited:
Frotier76 said:
The biggest problem with 420HC is the edge rolls easily under pressure versus any other grade of stainless that was commonly used on American cutlery like 440A .Either it be a Leatherman blade,Case,or Buck they all seem to perform the same to me.Except for when Schrade was using 420HC in place of their 440A for their Plus Steel in the late 90's/early 2000's.Obviously it dulled quicker than 440A but had very minimal edge rolling issues with Schrade's 420HC versus everyone else...don't ask me why.
Click to expand...

David raises good points. I'd like to add the following.

Depends on the hardness. Also depends on the angle at which you sharpen.
As I posted earlier in the thread
Buck hardens their 420HC to 58-59
Case hardens their 42HC to 55-56

I sharpen my Buck 420HC knives at 15° per side and have not experienced edge rolling.
I sharpen my Case knives at 20° per side and have not experienced edge rolling with those either.

The harder Buck 420HC will support a finer edge without rolling.
 
Disagree with that statement highly Frank.Two sitting ducks prone to roll the easiest by Buck in 420HC are the 113 Ranger-Skinner and the Vantage models in 420HC.Those two are deeply hollow ground with really fine edges that roll easily.The third was a Buck Quickfire that rolled on me while I was using it to strip the bark from logs for my wood stove that were sitting outside and the Quickfire has a thicker edge.I keep giving Buck a chance with their 420HC and I'm only satisfied with Schrade USA's results.Also Frank Buck Knives customer service when I've asked them about the steel they're saying 57-58rc in hardness.
 
What edge angle are you using?

Like I said, I have never had the edge of a Buck 420HC knife roll. YMMV depending on what you cut, and what angle you use when sharpening.

As for hardness, I've measured blades of four different Buck 420HC knives in the engineering lab at work using a Rockwell tester calibrated using a sample traceable to the national standard. Each was 59HRC.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top