Are bearings the next big thing?

I don't like bearings, IKBS or similar. I don't like bushing pivots either. Either bearings or bushings would definitely stop me from buying a knife I otherwise liked.
 
We had a thread similar to this in the past. A few custom knife makers jumped in and commented that they use bearings in all of their folders, regardless of deployment mechanism. All of the Microtech folders I have use bearings. It's not a question of "smoothness", but of lower friction, rolling friction being less than sliding friction. I think as time moves on, we will see more makers / manufacturers adopt some type of bearing mechanism in the pivot.
 
Bearing are great, but certainly not a necessity.

Most manufacturers are not going to go to the trouble to use a bearing system.
 
I don't think bearings are the next big thing. The ease with which you can open a knife with them is nice, but it opens up a can of worms with the whole gravity knives issue. The additional manufacturing/machining involved with cutting a recess into the blade and the handles increases cot dramatically. I say this based on some commentary made by some manufacturers indicating that the cost of simple lasering a blade is a large expense. So a regular folder that would run say $75 would possibly jump anywhere in price from $20-$50, making it unattainable for many that just can't spend that kind of money. Not everyone that buys knives is a nut that can drop hundreds on the latest and greatest steel. We are in a small minority.
 
Ball or roller bearings add thickness, cost, and complexity to a folding knife. They make sense in high speed applications like motor shafts, but a blade pivot is a low speed assembly.

Think of it this way: each time you fully open and close your folder that constitutes 360 degrees of travel, equivalent to one rotation. If you open and close your knife ten times every day for a year that is the equivalent rotation to what a 3600 rpm motor moves every minute. It may be a tad smoother than a plain bearing, but is it really necessary in light of the complexity it adds? Cartridge bearings would be thicker still.

My folders open fast enough for me, so I'll take simplicity any day.
 
Composites are the next step, by chemical engineering all the materials you'll be able to order your knife like ya do a Chinese dinner, 1 from column a, 1 from column b, not to spicy ;).

Composite blades that have plastic properties in regards to flexibility yet gardeners that keeps a sharp blade longer, composite scales that lubricate, are light, stiff, have built in gripability while conforming to any hand.

Still there's something dependable, almost predictable about knives that haven't changed in 50+ years, there's comfort in knowing what to expect from my knife and what is limitations are.
 
RevDevil said:
The ease with which you can open a knife with them is nice, but it opens up a can of worms with the whole gravity knives issue.
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That's the main reason I won't buy a knife with bearings... over here, it may as well be a butterfly knife or a switchblade.
 
Speed is not my primary concern with bearings at all either.

Take the Southard for instance. Sure it opens fast, it's designed to do that, but the bearings bring more to the table. With lockbar pressure taken off the blade swings completely freely, there IS no pivot adjustment, just tighten it all the way and you're set and there is absolutely NO blade play whatsoever.

Durability is still a question since the Southard is new, but really, what's to wear out? Take the example of how little work the bearings do, given by a member, and consider how durable that should make the design over time.

I get simplicity, but I don't really see a downside. And adding $20 or whatever to a knife? I don't buy that one bit. The bearings are very inexpensive, the rest is negligible for a design that has many cnc steps already. I understand what your saying (I work in manufacturing) and it's true that big corporations break down cost to the fractions (especially industries like the automotive field) but that doesn't exempt the validity of increasing value for a product by raising production costs by a couple of dollars or less (maybe much less) per unit.

I'm not seeing much of a reason for the big companies to NOT do it. :)
 
Strigamort said:
Speed is not my primary concern with bearings at all either.

Take the Southard for instance. Sure it opens fast, it's designed to do that, but the bearings bring more to the table. With lockbar pressure taken off the blade swings completely freely, there IS no pivot adjustment, just tighten it all the way and you're set and there is absolutely NO blade play whatsoever.

Durability is still a question since the Southard is new, but really, what's to wear out? Take the example of how little work the bearings do, given by a member, and consider how durable that should make the design over time.
I get simplicity, but I don't really see a downside. And adding $20 or whatever to a knife? I don't buy that one bit. The bearings are very inexpensive, the rest is negligible for a design that has many cnc steps already. I understand what your saying (I work in manufacturing) and it's true that big corporations break down cost to the fractions (especially industries like the automotive field) but that doesn't exempt the validity of increasing value for a product by raising production costs by a couple of dollars or less (maybe much less) per unit.

I'm not seeing much of a reason for the big companies to NOT do it. :)
Click to expand...

In any manufacturing environment time is money. Wen it takes you 20-30% longer to release a product that essentially does the same thing and before the upside is very narrow. Aside from that, there is cost involved in the added steps, labor, aquisition, planning, etc. you may not believe it, but many, many manufacturers from Spyderco to Emerson, to Kershaw, to Buck have explained in some detail that small changes cost big money in the long run. With the economy being where it is, it isn't a gamble many people feel comfortable taking. Just because we think we can explain it away in simple terms, does not mean that it translates that easily into existing business models. You can argue it all you want, but it appears that those are the main reasons for keeping things the way they are.

Simplicity is only one aspect to get. The legalities play an overwhelming role in things. As much as I'd love to see more 4" blade folders in all manner of steels and handle materials, it doesn't happen. Wile some laws are changing in more restrictive jurisdictions, they get tightened down in others. It's a perpetual circle, if you can think of it in those terms. Companies want to sell practical tools that get used, worn out, and replaced. That is how they make money. Businesses aren't in it exclusively for the "cool factor", they need to make a profit or they cease to exist.


Goosey said:
That's the main reason I won't buy a knife with bearings... over here, it may as well be a butterfly knife or a switchblade.
Click to expand...

It is definitely a slippery slope. Some states here will classify that as an automatic/switchblade. It recently happened to a friend in Chicago. Te knife was a custom with IKBS.
 
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Bill1170 said:
Ball or roller bearings add thickness, cost, and complexity to a folding knife. They make sense in high speed applications like motor shafts, but a blade pivot is a low speed assembly.

Think of it this way: each time you fully open and close your folder that constitutes 360 degrees of travel, equivalent to one rotation. If you open and close your knife ten times every day for a year that is the equivalent rotation to what a 3600 rpm motor moves every minute. It may be a tad smoother than a plain bearing, but is it really necessary in light of the complexity it adds? Cartridge bearings would be thicker still.

My folders open fast enough for me, so I'll take simplicity any day.
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I looked at this argument from the other direction. given what the bearings are designed for putting them on a knife should mean trouble free use for a very long time. if we're looking at attempts by makers, Sebenza and such to create a tough knife (ti frame etc) which will last for a long time then bearings fit into this argument. I don't think they'll become the norm for the reasons stated, most people couldn't care less.

I have one knife with bearings, a Laconico Slim EDC. Would I have bought it without? definitely, yet the bearings fit with his ethos, same as Sebenza. I'm not fussed about how fast it opens but there is something very nice about a knife that has zero play and will continue to, maintenance free for a long time:)
 
Speed is not my primary concern with bearings at all either.<br />
<br />
Take the Southard for instance. Sure it opens fast, it's designed to do that, but the bearings bring more to the table. With lockbar pressure taken off the blade swings completely freely, there IS no pivot adjustment, just tighten it all the way and you're set and there is absolutely NO blade play whatsoever.<br />
<br />
Durability is still a question since the Southard is new, but really, what's to wear out? Take the example of how little work the bearings do, given by a member, and consider how durable that should make the design over time.<br />
<b>I get simplicity, but I don't really see a downside. And adding $20 or whatever to a knife? I don't buy that one bit. The bearings are very inexpensive, the rest is negligible for a design that has many cnc steps already. I understand what your saying (I work in manufacturing) and it's true that big corporations break down cost to the fractions (especially industries like the automotive field) but that doesn't exempt the validity of increasing value for a product by raising production costs by a couple of dollars or less (maybe much less) per unit.</b><br />
<br />
I'm not seeing much of a reason for the big companies to NOT do it. :)
Click to expand...
<br />
<br />
In any manufacturing environment time is money. Wen it takes you 20-30% longer to release a product that essentially does the same thing and before the upside is very narrow. Aside from that, there is cost involved in the added steps, labor, aquisition, planning, etc. you may not believe it, but many, many manufacturers from Spyderco to Emerson, to Kershaw, to Buck have explained in some detail that small changes cost big money in the long run. With the economy being where it is, it isn't a gamble many people feel comfortable taking. Just because we think we can explain it away in simple terms, does not mean that it translates that easily into existing business models. You can argue it all you want, but it appears that those are the main reasons for keeping things the way they are.<br />
<br />
Simplicity is only one aspect to get. The legalities play an overwhelming role in things. As much as I'd love to see more 4" blade folders in all manner of steels and handle materials, it doesn't happen. Wile some laws are changing in more restrictive jurisdictions, they get tightened down in others. It's a perpetual circle, if you can think of it in those terms. Companies want to sell practical tools that get used, worn out, and replaced. That is how they make money. Businesses aren't in it exclusively for the "cool factor", they need to make a profit or they cease to exist.<br />
<br />
<br />
That's the main reason I won't buy a knife with bearings... over here, it may as well be a butterfly knife or a switchblade.
Click to expand...
<br />
<br />
It is definitely a slippery slope. Some states here will classify that as an automatic/switchblade. It recently happened to a friend in Chicago. Te knife was a custom with IKBS.
Click to expand...

You're making some good points, however, I still disagree in some areas. They may not be in it for the cool factor, but at the same time it's wise to innovate and build excitement around the brand.

If you look over the threads regarding which companies and products people are most excited about, novelty (for lack of a better term) builds a good portion of that enthusiasm. CRKT is a prime example, not only of my point here, but also in regards to cost. I'm of the opinion that IKBS along with flipper tabs are what is critical about their catalog. It's not the steel, even with the market who values steel choice more than any other demographic.

Benchmade, I believe, uses "lean" to keep costs down, the same system that I use where I work. Spyderco and KAI, I'm sure, use similar programs and it only serves to make incorporation of new features more viable.

Legalities are a subject that I'm not very familiar with. :)
 
None of the bearing knives I've had (southard, todd begg bodega) were as smooth as I thought they'd be. The smoothest knife I have EVER had was probably a benchmade mini dejavoo with bronze washers. The second smoothest is probably my hinderer xm18 3.5.
 
The Logical One said:
None of the bearing knives I've had (southard, todd begg bodega) were as smooth as I thought they'd be. The smoothest knife I have EVER had was probably a benchmade mini dejavoo with bronze washers. The second smoothest is probably my hinderer xm18 3.5.
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That's odd. I suppose "smoothness" is subjective. How do you define it?

I know that with my Southard the entire arc produces no feedback whatsoever aside from resistance from the lockbar and detent. I honestly cannot see how a knife could possibly be more smooth.
 
I've handled but not owned bearing-system knives. I prefer the other types I've tried, like the CRK and Hinderer system with washers. Call me old-fashioned, but—washer problems on a Hinderer? Put in new ones, cheap, no problem. Simplicity is a point of value. That's why, I think, CRK knives do so well. Aside from the exotic inlays and annuals, the form on the Sebenza is pretty plain. It's clean, simple, and minimal. Some people call it boring; I love it—and I guess that happens when opinions are involved: people disagree. I wouldn't turn down a good knife with bearings, but I wouldn't choose it if custom-designing a knife.
 
I can usually make a smooth knife with washers but it's a lot easier to do it with bearings. You can tighten down the pivot on bearings a lot more than you can with washers while still keeping it smooth and without blade play. There's nothing complex about bearings unless it's IKBS and you take the knife apart. That's why I don't use IKBS.
 
raylaconico said:
I can usually make a smooth knife with washers but it's a lot easier to do it with bearings. You can tighten down the pivot on bearings a lot more than you can with washers while still keeping it smooth and without blade play. There's nothing complex about bearings unless it's IKBS and you take the knife apart. That's why I don't use IKBS.
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Hi Ray! Thanks for chiming in. I really want to head over to Visalia and check out your knives one day.

Are there any local shops that carry your stuff? I know that years ago there was a shop at Mary's Vineyard that carried some high end stuff. I believe that's where I first saw Michael Vagninos work. :)
 
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