Are better made knives "better?"

CapitalizedLiving

CapitalizedLiving

Joined
Dec 1, 2007
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Crude cutting tools from flint-knapped obsidian to very crude, low alloy metal blades have been used for thousands of years to hunt, fish, made shelter and clothing, make fire, and to survive in general.

In spite of this, I have friends who swear that they couldn't survive with a Mora or a Fallkniven or that they need at least four Busses to survive. And by SURVIVE I mean stay alive in a resource-impoverished, population-of-one scenario.

Are we really to the point where the first thing we ask in a survival situation is "where are my four Busses?" or think "oh shit all I have is a Fallkniven, I'm doomed!"

Now I understand that a lot of people buy knives for fun and use a lot of knives for fun. And when I go on survival excursions I like to take a decently made knife. But I understand that I might break it. And I also understand that if I don't break it, I might lose it. In any event I am always at risk of ending up with no knife at all, and will have to make something out of rock, bone, wood, or scrap metal (if I'm lucky enough to have any).

I just don't know what to think of survival knife debates where people argue over makers, steels, tangs, handle materials, carry systems, and so on when it may all be a moot point anyway, when the situation goes south. Are these debates just for fun or are people being serious?
 
First of all, Mora and Busse are about as far apart on the spectrum as you can get. As for the difference between knives, you could obviously survive with a cheaper one, but isn't the whole point of it being a hobby rather than just an everyday item that we can argue about little details?
 
My $28 Ka-Bar USMC (yeah, I've had it a while) has done all I've asked of it in the woods. Still, I appreciate and admire the fit and finish of a higher end knife too. By the same token, my $20 Timex tells time more accurately, but doesn't give me the enjoyment of owning a 100-year old railroad-grade pocket watch that still keeps time to 15 seconds per week.
 
Four Busse knives are better than one Fallkniven. If you think otherwise I want to do some swapping with you.
 
TUF said:
Four Busse knives are better than one Fallkniven. If you think otherwise I want to do some swapping with you.
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true it is better but I'd be more willing to use/lose/break a Fallkniven and to be honest, I'll probally have a Fallkniven on me rather then the more expesnive Busse.
 
Depends on where the 'better' comes in. the finest fit and finish on a 3/8" thick blade isn't going to make it cut any more easily than one half as thick. The fanciest handle material isn't going to give a 1095 blade more wear resistance than one properly cut out of a $8 HSS power hacksaw blade. A really haunting and alluring hamon doesn't keep that carbon blade cutting any longer before rusting while on the beach. An injection molded plastic handle is going to let you cut longer than a boxy stabilized burl brick in your hands. A perfectly executed frame lock won't out chop a much cheaper, but larger, fixed blade/hatchet with a decent edge. Is it better materials, better design, better execution, or better looks?
 
CapitalizedLiving said:
Crude cutting tools from flint-knapped obsidian to very crude, low alloy metal blades have been used for thousands of years to hunt, fish, made shelter and clothing, make fire, and to survive in general.

In spite of this, I have friends who swear that they couldn't survive with a Mora or a Fallkniven or that they need at least four Busses to survive. And by SURVIVE I mean stay alive in a resource-impoverished, population-of-one scenario.

Are we really to the point where the first thing we ask in a survival situation is "where are my four Busses?" or think "oh shit all I have is a Fallkniven, I'm doomed!"

Now I understand that a lot of people buy knives for fun and use a lot of knives for fun. And when I go on survival excursions I like to take a decently made knife. But I understand that I might break it. And I also understand that if I don't break it, I might lose it. In any event I am always at risk of ending up with no knife at all, and will have to make something out of rock, bone, wood, or scrap metal (if I'm lucky enough to have any).

I just don't know what to think of survival knife debates where people argue over makers, steels, tangs, handle materials, carry systems, and so on when it may all be a moot point anyway, when the situation goes south. Are these debates just for fun or are people being serious?
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Think about these few things here for a few....

Back in the 1800's and before that people survived out in the wilderness with nothing more than butcher knives.

What about the beginning of the iron age and those people who survived with blades back then.

What about the Bronze age were people survived with blades made out of bronze.

And so on..... and on and on....


In a real situation were someone would really have to survive it's not going to come down to what blade they have and it just not going to matter if they have a Busse or a CS Trail Master, K-Bar etc.

People can what if themselves forever.

I think most of them are watching way too much TV personally.
 
its a hobby. we all enjoy finer things.

so we argue as to which is better this and that whether it be materials design what have you.

as it is, i don't think most of us would survive in such a situation regardless of having 4 busses or a sharp rock. as much as it pains me to say it, the human condition has lost most of its survival skills. our reaction speed is slow, we don't hear nor see as well, and lets face it. we're miserable having to walk or run any great distance.
 
Take a similar length Busse and a Mora, with just the supplied factory edge, which will slice and carve better out of the box?
 
Yes but to a point. A Mora knife could do all you ask of it to make fire and shelter. A Fallkniven could do the same. But I'd trust the fallkniven more because it holds a better edge and is more robust.

If you want something that holds an dge and is more robust than a Fallkniven then you could probably do well with a Busse, but by that stage you are probably looking at the laws of diminishing returns. The step up from a Mora to a Fallkniven is substantial but less so from Fallkniven to Busse, and so on.
 
Is a better made knife better? Probably. That doesn't mean the lesser knife isn't good enough. The finest tools in the world don't help a bit if you don't know how to use them.
 
CapitalizedLiving said:
Crude cutting tools from flint-knapped obsidian to very crude, low alloy metal blades have been used for thousands of years to hunt, fish, made shelter and clothing, make fire, and to survive in general.

In spite of this, I have friends who swear that they couldn't survive with a Mora or a Fallkniven or that they need at least four Busses to survive. And by SURVIVE I mean stay alive in a resource-impoverished, population-of-one scenario.

Are we really to the point where the first thing we ask in a survival situation is "where are my four Busses?" or think "oh shit all I have is a Fallkniven, I'm doomed!"

Now I understand that a lot of people buy knives for fun and use a lot of knives for fun. And when I go on survival excursions I like to take a decently made knife. But I understand that I might break it. And I also understand that if I don't break it, I might lose it. In any event I am always at risk of ending up with no knife at all, and will have to make something out of rock, bone, wood, or scrap metal (if I'm lucky enough to have any).

I just don't know what to think of survival knife debates where people argue over makers, steels, tangs, handle materials, carry systems, and so on when it may all be a moot point anyway, when the situation goes south. Are these debates just for fun or are people being serious?
Click to expand...

There are more expensive knives out there to be had, but past a certain point, there is a point of diminishing return. In the past there were people like the old mountain men, who survived out in the rocky mountain wilderness with a Green River skining knife by the John Russell company. This is basicly a glorified kitchen butcher knife. Thin carbon steel blade. Then there are all those machete's in central and south American, with blades no thicker than some butcher knifes. All except the Ontario are less than 1/8 inch thick at the spine, yet jungle people all along the Amazon are surviving just fine with low cost Tramontina machete's.

The simple truth is that this is a knife knut sight, so people here have for the most part, lost touch with the real world. So they have a Walter Mitty life going on intheir heads with fantacy senerios going on to justify the 400 dollar knife they think is going to be their own personal Excalliber.

The truth can be found by looking at our grandfathers. They lived through a great depression, life on the farm, and a harder working life than many here on this forum. Yet they did very well with a well worn old barlow knife in their pocket. If they went hunting, they had an old gray bladed 'huntin knife' that was a plain old carbon steel knife that cost less than a few bucks. If you want to buy a high end knife because you're a knife nut, fine. Some people go into hock for a Porshe, while others commute to work just fine in a Honda. A 19.95 Timex will tell you the same time as a Seiko, just without the snobbery.

I sent off my customs to be sold off many years ago. I used to carry an expensive custom for a woods knife, but was disappointed in it's performance. It didn't do anything that a lesser cost knife could do, and it was heavy. That Randall 14 was one hunk of knife. At least I got my money out of it when I sold it off. Now I just carry a sak in my pocket and a 12 inch Ontario machete in my day pack. Handles both ends of the spectrum.

As for the expensive knife? Well, If Cody Lundin and some of the other survival guru's swear by Mora's, that says a lot. An idiot with a high dollar knife is not likely to survive just because he has the magic name blade. Like you said, man was surviving for thousands of years with tools crude by todays standards. Yet mankind made it out of the stone and bronze age.

Carl.
 
Give me a $10 Mora Carbon, a $20 Condor machete & a $70 Becker - that's $100 worth of blades.

If my budget was under $50 then I'd just get a machete & a Mora and a SAK, it shouldn't be hard to survive with those. Or if I was surviving where the wood was harder and the machete wouldn't cope well then I'd go with axe+Mora+SAK.

Now, how could I survive better if I spent more?

People that buy Busse knives don't need them, they want them so they buy them. If they can survive with a Busse then they can survive with a Becker and most likely they could survive with a $10 Mora.
 
I have had the privelige of camping with some tribal people in the Kimberlies , their idea of survival is radically different to the average " civilised" persons idea ... to be living in the open , making their own shelter, eating what they find or kill is their normal , their old people tell about survival , tribes being massacred to make way for cattle runs , or for sport ... how they managed by luck or skill or both to survive .. they didnt have brand name knives to think about .

My father was a child in Germany / Lithuania in WWII , his idea of survival , being Jewish descent , being kicked off their farm at gunpoint by the russians , crossing the front back into german territory etc .. he had a different idea of survival to what many would generally hold today to I believe His family spent time camped in a forrest trying to avoid soldiers , the cost and brand of their knife wasnt a big deal tot hem at the time from what I understood , it was important not to have anything looking military tho .

Given the recent crazieness of the world , we seen hurricane Katrina wipe a lump of US coast off the map , and make a mess of far more , I didnt see anyone saying their knife saved them

... local to me , the floods that swallowed a chunk of QLD and NSW bigger than Texas , and a tore up Vic as well , kife brand or price paid wasnt a big deal to the people I know in OLD , the wildfires that were running amok on the west coast when I was there with my brother ... knife statsus was not important , getting the hell away from the fires was

the earthquake in NZ that shut down Christchurch and caused a lot of mayhem some people in the basements of the buildings on fire woulda probly have like scuba gear , it took heaps of water to put out the fires , after it was safe for resucers , there was no longer anyone phoning up from underneath .... but knife brand ? not important

Now we see massive destruction from a quake in Japan that has made a near global tsunami and a couple explosions in a nuclear reactor ...( Suggestions on knife brand and make for survivng nuclear meltdown anyone ? )

I dont think brand of knife will have have been a big thing to a lot of the people who were involved and managed to survive ... OK these scenarios are not flavor of the month and they dont lend themselves to rambo dreaming or to bears idiocy either much

knives are fun , even important , the skills to use and look after them are probably more impportant , the skills to improvise rank right up there too , in my opinion ( I dont hold with the idea of oh no , I havent got my <brandname> knife only this pos I use everyday , Im stuffed )

the populations confining survival scenarios to being stuck while hiking / rafting / wildernessy boys own adventure stuff is worrying tho to me , my opinion only tho
 
A better knife may not &#8220;cut&#8221; better but 30 knives don&#8217;t cut better then 1, never the less that doesn&#8217;t stop us from buying with every dime worth of disposable income.
 
it's only when you get to true, long-term hard-use that a Busse or Fallkniven is demonstrably "better" than a Mora or Opinel.

i don't own safe queens. i spend good $$$ on decent blades which i will USE.

i take my Fallknivens with me out bush. if i lose it, i'll be pissed, but i won't be shedding tears of blood over it.

mind you, if i'm canoeing or suchlike, i tend to take a Mora clipper 860 with me. if i lose that, it won't bug me much at all.
 
First off , some of you are sharing great ideas and stories ,especially you Jackknife/

I like these discussions as long as they do not turn into macho spewing silliness. :)

Busse makes a fine blade I have no doubt , although I do not own one and really have no desire to since it's niche is already filled in my arsenal.


I think of times 'back in the day' when folks used what they had usually until they lost it or it broke. Extra items were a luxury.

This pic is an example. These three knives were my Grandpa Reynolds knives.
21jwsn6.jpg

A Ka-Bar fixed blade knife that I assume was a butcher knife of some sort ( I rehandled it since the original scales were ready to fall off ). This Grandpa was a lumberjack and a farmer , he lived thru the depression in one of the poorest , hard hit states there was ,Arkansas. He used that Ka-Bar for everything from camping to fishing to farm chores , he used it when they went bear or deer or pig hunting to skin and butcher. I consider myself very lucky that I was the one out of all the grandkids to inherit it.
I would rather have this Ka-Bar than ten Busse's and I'm not joking in any way.
The top slipjoint was his edc pocketknife , a Keenkutter that also had it's scales in bad shape , so I replaced them with stag scales from a deer he shot well before most of us were even born. Notice how the blades are worn down considerably. I do not know how many decades he had this knife or the bottom knife which was his -Sunday go to meeting- knife. The man had three knives most of his life that he used for everything. The bottom knife was a present from his wife , my Grandma Etta.
That Ka-Bar is not made from anything fancy ( just good , old fashioned American carbon steel ) but it will do everything a modern knife will do regardless of new age steels and all that.

As I said , I was lucky enough to inherit all three and I will keep them for my kid if I have ever have one.

Tostig
 
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