are bushcraft knives over built?

[SouthernCross]

G'day CP

Mmm, he said mini hatchet. He's talking about those tiny little things that some like to carry. They are little more than a grip for your hand with the head right above it, just about no haft at all, and to make matters worse, they are usually cut by a waterjet and flat. I agree with him, they suck.

Now a true hatchet or axe -- different story.....

Since you are such an expert on hatchets, how would you classified a GB mini?

Would you classify it as a true hatchet or one of the ones that suck?

I know what my opinion of the GB mini is (bear in mind, I know how to use one ), but I'm interested in what yours is.



Kind regards
Mick

 

[samhain73]

Justin Gingrich just made me a .48 "paring knife" version of his Shiv model in CPM3V. I'll see how it works out. :thumbup:

 

[TLM]

PLEASE read what I'm trying to say next time... that was my entire point. For the weight, a 12-14 inch tramontina is more effective and precise. Not nearly enough leverage. I favor a 19 inch hawk...
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I did read it but did mix up two posts as I did not suggest a mini hatchet but a previous post did. I agree on the mini hatchets, ornamental and not good for much. I guess I am calling the more proper tool a hatchet and not a 'hawk. I have tried the Gerber mini and it is not too bad for sharpening tent stakes but otherwise it is just dead weight.

On the other hand there is a different tradition of using steel objects in northern Europe, it has evolved for a few thousand years and it does fit the local forests pretty well. That is not to say that other combinations are bad, it works and we have not seen any need to change it.

TLM

 

[kgd]

I'm not calling you out, it's just that you bring up a good point. What I don't understand, is, OK, these guys like to bring everything with them, LNT and all that (seems most ultralighters do the same). But where is the logical disconnect where they don't understand that someone equipping themselves forf bushcrafting is, by definition, going to bring tools to make things out of what's found in nature, rather than just carry everything in. It's simply a different sport with a different goal.

Yes and I think that sort of goes both ways. You have one end of the spectrum of folks saying, I won't go take a pee without bringing my axe and knife with me. You got another end of the spectrum of folks who brought the portable toilette and they just take a pee right there....They got the right tool for all the jobs. You also got folks who vary their tools to meet their circumstances and anticipated activities. These guys recognize that if all goes as planned they have the right tools, but maybe there will be a little adventure on the way. Depending on perceived risk they might slip all the way into one of the ends of the spectrum, or they might just beef up their tools a little bit and make do with the stuff they got.

I have to admit that I've been out camping and all my knife did was sit on my belt while other times it was used quite a bit on a wide variety of tasks. So from my perspective, I prefer a utility type blade. One that is neither all thin and sharp as hell nor all thick and good only for chopping/splitting. When I perceive that my trip will take me out of my comfort zone with my preferred utility then I will bring along an axe. Chances are I'll bring the same knife I normally do rather than go specialized just because this time I happen to bring an axe. Maybe I'm generalizing here, but I think most members sit on this fence rather than the extremes.

 

[j williams]

But where is the logical disconnect where they don't understand that someone equipping themselves forf bushcrafting is, by definition, going to bring tools to make things out of what's found in nature, rather than just carry everything in. It's simply a different sport with a different goal.

Great post. :thumbup:

This is a great thread.

I like my blades in 5/32. Thats the magic number to me. I can carve very well with it, and the thickness wedges apart wood nicely while batoning. I like 3/16ths too. I was going in the general direction of thinner, but Bindlestitch(Turley Knives), has shown me that they can still be a very effective bushcrafter at that thickness. Still though, I will take 5/32 over 3/16th if available. This goes for convex blades.

If im after a Scandi grind, I like em 1/8 or under. Seems to be a better woodcrafter in general, and the scandi grind leaves so much spine that I believe they are plenty tough. I dont really care for thicker stock scandis. I find I have to alter my carving tech to compensate for the thicness. Probably just me though.

Im sorry, but I dont believe one bit that the axe is falling out of favor. It should always have a place in your kit. Come to my neck of the hardwoods and see how far a machete gets you. It is do able, but you are gonna wear yourself out, and put your tool through some shit. Alot easier with an axe. Not to say this is true for all bioregions, just round here. I do love my 14in Condor El Salvidor, and use it frequently just for kicks, but it would be tossed in favor of my Wett any day. I really need to get a good Khuk or Bolo and see how I like those. Ive owned em before, but havent ever put one through any serious work.

 

[PayetteRucker]

I did read it but did mix up two posts as I did not suggest a mini hatchet but a previous post did. I agree on the mini hatchets, ornamental and not good for much. I guess I am calling the more proper tool a hatchet and not a 'hawk. I have tried the Gerber mini and it is not too bad for sharpening tent stakes but otherwise it is just dead weight.

On the other hand there is a different tradition of using steel objects in northern Europe, it has evolved for a few thousand years and it does fit the local forests pretty well. That is not to say that other combinations are bad, it works and we have not seen any need to change it.

TLM

I'm a big axe fan-I've used em all my life. Primary source of heat in my parents' 150 year old house is a big fireplace. I grew up splitting wood in the backyard and processing trees cut down for the development company my dad worked for. My first axe was an estwing hatchet at 9 or 10 years old. All I'm saying is these belt axes with short handles are not very efficient. The axe is one of the oldest tools ever devised by man, and like you said, the overall design has barely changed-which is a sign of a practical, efficient tool. There's no arguing that. Axe, hawk, knife, I don't care what you call it-if it is an effective working tool, I'm all for using it-no matter the thickness, steel type, weight, etc. Growing up using axes, I'm not closed-minded in that I think large blades have their place too.

 

[hollowdweller]

All I'm saying is these belt axes with short handles are not very efficient.

That's really true. With any short axe there is a tradeoff between portability and cutting power. A good edge can make up for SOME of the difference in size but really given the same sharpnes the longer and heavier an axe or hatchet is the deeper it will cut with less effort.

 

[hollowdweller]

Whilst there are still wood oriented tasks being evaluated, the inclusion of food & game prep is an indication that others also see a bushcraft knife as needing to be good at more than just working wood




Kind regards
Mick

True. I really like the bushcraft knife shape with the scandi grind and fine point for butchering game. Easy to get between the ribs and cut all the meat out of the tight corners.

 

[PayetteRucker]

That's really true. With any short axe there is a tradeoff between portability and cutting power. A good edge can make up for SOME of the difference in size but really given the same sharpnes the longer and heavier an axe or hatchet is the deeper it will cut with less effort.

IMO, hickory is light, and carrying an extra 6-10 inches is not a big deal when lashed to a good sized pack. Again, specifically, I like carrying an HB Forge Shawnee hawk more than anything, and I think it's lighter than most belt axes anyway at 19 inches long.

 

[not2sharp]

The less skilled the user, the more robust the tool has to be if it is to survive. I would hope that we could do more to train anyone who is interested in how to use edged tools in the outdoors. We have a lot of vendors selling their wares, and they are fine knives; but, it all sounds too much of "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." When should we use a small fine bladed knife, a camp knife, a hatchet, an axe, a draw knife, a saw, a hammer....etc. All in one tools are always less efficient then a purpose made tool. Since when has "survival", or camping been about betting all your chips on a single knife?

Also, the big massive hunks of iron (which I must admit I am very fond of) has its own self defeating limits. The added mass, length, and momentum increase the stress on the blade materials, making it that much more likely to sustain serious damage from a hard impact.

These are all good useful tools, but only when we used them to their best advantage. Who cares if a 2 foot long camp knife can peal an orange, or whether a sub-four inch blade can chop wood!? More thought, more skills, with more edge tools, will provide better results then more knife, most of the time.

n2s

 

[hollowdweller]

IMO, hickory is light, and carrying an extra 6-10 inches is not a big deal when lashed to a good sized pack. Again, specifically, I like carrying an HB Forge Shawnee hawk more than anything, and I think it's lighter than most belt axes anyway at 19 inches long.

Not really. According to their website it's 19" long and weighs 3 lbs. I'm not sure how far you go but something that long and heavy would be totally impractical for me to carry on a pack.

A Marbles #5 is 15 oz

A Reeves Nessmuk is 19oz

A GB mini is 10 oz

A GB Wildlife is around 24oz.

 

[baldtaco-II]

Not really. According to their website it's 19" long and weighs 3 lbs. I'm not sure how far you go but something that long and heavy would be totally impractical for me to carry on a pack.

A Marbles #5 is 15 oz

A Reeves Nessmuk is 19oz

A GB mini is 10 oz

A GB Wildlife is around 24oz.

Mmmm. by moving from the Wildlife to what I use now I added a few ounces and it really notices. It clouts a lot harder and I much prefer it, but I'm loathed to carry that more than a few miles with full kit. 3lb would be a real monster for me and totally out of the question.

 

[baldtaco-II]

The less skilled the user, the more robust the tool has to be if it is to survive. I would hope that we could do more to train anyone who is interested in how to use edged tools in the outdoors. We have a lot of vendors selling their wares, and they are fine knives; but, it all sounds too much of "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." When should we use a small fine bladed knife, a camp knife, a hatchet, an axe, a draw knife, a saw, a hammer....etc. All in one tools are always less efficient then a purpose made tool. Since when has "survival", or camping been about betting all your chips on a single knife?

Also, the big massive hunks of iron (which I must admit I am very fond of) has its own self defeating limits. The added mass, length, and momentum increase the stress on the blade materials, making it that much more likely to sustain serious damage from a hard impact.

These are all good useful tools, but only when we used them to their best advantage. Who cares if a 2 foot long camp knife can peal an orange, or whether a sub-four inch blade can chop wood!? More thought, more skills, with more edge tools, will provide better results then more knife, most of the time.

n2s

Agreed.

 

[ttoney83]

I like my hatchets REALLY thick!

 

[Cpl Punishment]

G'day CP
Since you are such an expert on hatchets, how would you classified a GB mini?
Would you classify it as a true hatchet or one of the ones that suck?
I know what my opinion of the GB mini is (bear in mind, I know how to use one ), but I'm interested in what yours is.

Thanks for the promotion to "expert"!!

I would classify the GB Mini as the bottom of the useful range. It has enough haft to grip at the end and get a good snap to it to chop above it's weight. I would, however, classify the Wildlife as much more useful for not too much more weight. If I NEED a lightweight axe, I'd rather take a light tomahawk like a CS Trail Hawk on a long haft, to use speed to make up for the lack of mass, than take a short axe.

But what I'm talking about as something that sucks is this:

Not enough haft or even a decent grip to get a good snap off (before you ask, yes, I read Mistwalker's thread on a similar design). I consider these horrible "axes" and a somewhat cumbersome knife.

 

[Eight Trigrams]

I figure I'd address this.

Prying is a seldom used thing in the woods, honestly. However, I do have a use for it.

Fallen logs. I'm not talking a fallen sapling, but LOGS, the kind you aren't going to drag anywhere and burn in half.

(Little dig coming here, just warning you) I think it's funny that some of the same people that lecture about using all of nature's resources will turn around and tell me they'd rather break low branches off a tree than break up a dead log to make fire if there's no smaller deadfall (i.e. it's been used up).

That said, yes, you can make wedges and wedge it apart -- if you're LIVING there. However, it's faster to ram something in and pry, go a little further and repeat until you can pop off a good sized chunk. One or two of those big chunks and you have firewood, and a little work put in, tinder, for the weekend.

I prefer to use an axe and pry with the handle for this, but a stout knife, for those mentioned earlier who simply WILL NOT carry larger tools, would work well. And it really doesn't need to be a battlecruiser knife, either. Something like a BRKT Bravo-1 is fine.

Sometimes you may want to dislodge a plant, and it'd be easier and do less damage to the edge to pry them out of the ground than hack at the roots, again, if a knife is all you will carry.

Now, another VERY RARE occurrence where a pryable knife would be real nice to have is if you're in the situation of the feller who had a rock trap his arm and he had to cut it off with his SAK (I think there was more than one of these stories). If you have a knife that is long and pryable (I know, bushcraft knife, well, You cna use a 10+ inch knife for such despite the naysayers), you MAY have enough leverage to get the rock, depending how big, off of you.

Please note that ALL of these scenarios require you be one of those guys that refuses to take anything but his bushcraft knife. If you take other tools with you for the hard tasks, then a super thin puukko style knife like a Mora is fine.

I'll add something to the prying list here; getting true tinder fungus out of a birch tree. Used a hidden-tang BRKT Kephart to pry chunks of it out. Held up fine.

 

[hollowdweller]

Thanks for the promotion to "expert"!!

I would classify the GB Mini as the bottom of the useful range. It has enough haft to grip at the end and get a good snap to it to chop above it's weight. I would, however, classify the Wildlife as much more useful for not too much more weight. If I NEED a lightweight axe, I'd rather take a light tomahawk like a CS Trail Hawk on a long haft, to use speed to make up for the lack of mass, than take a short axe.

But what I'm talking about as something that sucks is this:

Not enough haft or even a decent grip to get a good snap off (before you ask, yes, I read Mistwalker's thread on a similar design). I consider these horrible "axes" and a somewhat cumbersome knife.

My problem with those is that the weight is not as much in the head.

 

[kgd]

I'll add something to the prying list here; getting true tinder fungus out of a birch tree. Used a hidden-tang BRKT Kephart to pry chunks of it out. Held up fine.

I do that with the large blade of my SAK....Just take your time with it

I'm still a bit amused by the preoccupation of some given to taking an axe for everything. I take my axe along for some things but not everything. Never bother with one on day hikes and I contemplate pretty hard to take it along on weekend trips where a mid-sized blade/sak will do what I need just fine.

Again, depends on what I'm doing, but it sure isn't always sitting there trying trying to do intricate carving nor is it always trying to buck a tree. Lately, I've become more fascinated with the concept of having a variety of tools that can maximize versatility rather than just the 'perfect tools' or ten of the same flavors....

I do likes me a big beefy axe though

Oh and that kindling maker is nice to have too!

 

[x39]

Maybe you got that confused with 'batten the hatches'

Hmmm... a bit of a double entendre there?

 

[Cpl Punishment]

My problem with those is that the weight is not as much in the head.

Well, that's a problem I have with any of the "tactical" hawks that are water-jetted out of flat stock as well. They waste a good portion of the overall weight going down the haft, when it's much more useful to have it in the head.