Are knives stamped MADE IN USA really made in the USA?

[cpirtle]

I doubt you will find american made knives in Chinamart for example.

Buck 110 & Leatherman (among a few others)

Interesting, my Camillus CQB says:

ATS-34
U.S.A.

Yep, the knife is made in the USA, the steel in the blade is not. I heard this is one of the reasons Benchmade switched to 154cm a few years back, just to buy American steel.

 

[110 Dave]

Standing up for "USA" and were it is used! Many companies would have you believe that if they grind and heat treat the steel they can then say that it is USA but this is NOT true! Many will attempt to say “ a change in the law in the “X 90’s” allows us to import and stamp USA on it if we do “x amount of work on the product and “X” % [normally they quote 80% or 90% of the value or material or what ever sounds good,] and we meet that requirement! Then they will qualify the statement with an ‘I Think’, but they will not admit they are pu$$y footing around the LAW!
I for one am pi$$ed off at this practice and call on every American or any other that is glad to live here to email or write about that they will not buy questionable items with USA stamped on them! I have contacted one company that has ATS-34 a JAP Trade Mark on a blade stamped USA, which is illegal! Any other company using ATS-34 with the blade stamped USA is breaking the law and you the knife collecting public should contact them about it and ask for them to stop. Now to address some rants:

After reading as a man who loves his country, are American blades all they're cracked up (no pun intended) to be?

answer: YES if done correctly! Take the legendary 440 that buck quite using in 81…

Well, technically if you buy any knife made of ATS-34 then the steel itself is not made in the USA. It's made by Hitachi Steels. 154cm is the American made equivelant of ATS-34.
But that is a raw material and I don't think it applies to getting a "Made In USA" stamp.

sorry wrong on 2 counts ats-34 is a Copy of 154cm! It is abet cleaner in one element is all. Read and weep raw material does count Lots!

legaly if it said, "Made in U.S.A." and it really wasnt made in the USA that wouldnt that be false advertisement?

= YES you d^mm right is is and they Can be sued for it!

The problem comes in when a product isn't made entirely in the USA.
For example, a USA made knife that has the pivot pin and screws and thumb stud imported from a Chinese supplier. (1)
How about if all the parts are imported, and the knife is just put together here?(2)
What about if the blade is manufactured in the US and then sent south to Mexico to be finish machined and installed into a handle? (3) can you mark "Made in USA" on just the blade, maybe? (4) Things aren't as black and white as they may seem.

(1) Until you use the thumb stud it is ok but the stud if it comes that way is a integral part of the blade and it must be USA also as the blade is the reason for a knife. Add on option is ok also. (2) & (3) & (4) NO, NO & NO. Simple yes? (5) Humm – not if you read the law and guidelines

Here's where I think you have to be careful. ...Don't assume a common name with a long history in making knives makes ALL it's knives in the US, some people think our thought Buck is always 100% American made then where surprised.

There is a LOT I mean a Pucking LOT of controversy in buck’s forum on jest that subject

Just because an item says USA does not mean it is made here. It's legal to use made in USA if it's made in a US posession.
One good xample is all the garments that are made actually in CHINA.
Yep an island nation that uses slave (sweatshop) labor and the made in USA label. LEGALLY

YES there is this one case the island nation falls in a class like Porto Rico and us Virgin Islands and there is a letter writhing campaign on concerning exactly what tom posted = write/ email your congressman about this!!

]

Interesting, my Camillus CQB says: ATS-34, U.S.A.

yes and there is a case like that with buck also with the custom order blades in the “XXX” ... both of which should not be

Here is the definitive answer.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/12/musa2.htm

Humm… you missed two links that better explain it but are the first other then me to point to the LAW – damm good trolling – congrats!!! Oh here ore the other two!
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/12/epsmadeusa.htm#e8
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm
more trolling on next post!

 

[110 Dave]

Here is print out of the most important parts in the links above. this is for those who do not have the time to look up the links above. differing opions welcome knife makers: any wish to debate the below? jest post! -(smill'ies added)

ENFORCEMENT POLICY STATEMENT ON U.S. ORIGIN CLAIMS
Federal Trade Commission
“For example, in the context of a complex product, such as a computer, it is likely to be insignificant that imported steel is used in making one part of a single component (e.g., the frame of the floppy drive). This is because the steel in such a case is likely to constitute a very small portion of the total cost of the computer, and because consumers purchasing a computer are likely, if they are concerned about the origin of the product, to be concerned with the origin of the more immediate inputs (floppy drive, hard drive, CPU, keyboard, etc.) and perhaps the parts that, in turn, make up those inputs. Consumers are less likely to have in mind materials, such as the steel, that are several steps back in the manufacturing process. By contrast, in the context of a product such as a pipe or a wrench{ or a knife} for which steel constitutes a more direct and significant input, the fact that the steel is imported is likely to be a significant factor in evaluating whether the finished product is all or virtually all made in the United States .” “In this analysis, raw materials(18) are neither automatically included nor automatically excluded in the evaluation of whether a product is all or virtually all made in the United States. Instead, whether a product whose other parts and processing are of U.S. origin would not be considered all or virtually all made in the United States because the product incorporated imported raw materials depends (as would be the case with any other input) on what percentage of the cost of the product the raw materials constitute and how far removed from the finished product the raw materials are.(19) Thus, were the gold in a gold ring, or the clay used to make a ceramic tile, imported, an unqualified "Made in USA" claim for the ring or tile would likely be inappropriate.(20) This is both because of the significant value the gold and the clay are likely to represent relative to the finished product and because the gold and the clay are only one step back from the finished articles and are integral components of those articles.”

Also in the same link-
1. “19 C.F.R. § 134.46. Specifically, this provision provides that:
In any case in which the words "United States," or "American," the letters "U.S.A.," any variation of such words or letters, or the name of any city or locality in the United States, or the name of any foreign country or locality other than the country or locality in which the article was manufactured or produced appear on an imported article or its container, and those words, letters or names may mislead or deceive the ultimate purchaser as to the actual country of origin of the article, there shall appear, legibly and permanently, in close proximity to such words, letters or name, and in at least a comparable size, the name of the country of origin preceded by "Made in," "Product of," or other words of similar meaning.”

“Example: A table lamp is assembled in the U.S. from American-made brass, an American-made Tiffany-style lampshade, and an imported base. The base accounts for a small percent of the total cost of making the lamp. An unqualified Made in USA claim is deceptive for two reasons: The base is not far enough removed in the manufacturing process from the finished product to be of little consequence and it is a significant part of the final product.”
“Example: A company manufactures food processors in its U.S. plant, making most of the parts, including the housing and blade, from U.S. materials. The motor, which constitutes 50 percent of the food processor’s total manufacturing costs, is bought from a U.S. supplier. The food processor manufacturer knows that the motor is assembled in a U.S. factory. Even though most of the parts of the food processor are of U.S. origin, the final assembly is in the U.S., and the motor is assembled in the U.S., the food processor is not considered "all or virtually all" American-made if the motor itself is made of imported parts that constitute a significant percentage of the appliance’s total manufacturing cost.”

“What is the interaction between the FTC and Customs regarding country-of-origin claims?
“Even if Customs determines that an imported product does not need a foreign country-of-origin mark, it is not necessarily permissible to promote that product as Made in USA. The FTC considers additional factors to decide whether a product can be advertised or labeled as Made in USA.”
“Manufacturers and marketers should check with Customs to see if they need to mark their products with the foreign country of origin. If they don’t, they should look at the FTC’s standard to check if they can properly make a Made in USA claim.”
“The FTC has jurisdiction over foreign origin claims on products and in packaging that are beyond the disclosures required by Customs (for example, claims that supplement a required foreign origin marking to indicate where additional processing or finishing of a product occurred)”.
“The FTC also has jurisdiction over foreign origin claims in advertising and other promotional materials. Unqualified U.S. origin claims in ads or other promotional materials for products that Customs requires a foreign country-of-origin mark may mislead or confuse consumers about the product’s origin. To avoid misleading consumers, marketers should clearly disclose the foreign manufacture of a product.”
Now how I tie this stuff together. The blade is the major component of a knife and the reason for being a knife, excepting in cases of art knives were the decorative items have value over the value of the other components. To use steel from overseas at all would tend to seem to be enough to prevent an unqualified use of USA. But now in this particular case of the ATS-34 blades - the label it self is a protected, copyrighted name owned by Hitachi, or another Japanese company, and by international law can only be used on their products. Thus if you used it on any other steel, like say an American made steel, you could be legally perused by the copyright owner for fraudulent use.
Now it seems strange to me to have a juxposition of selling an item proudly displaying an overseas copyrighted trade name and USA on it together. Logic would seem to say it cannot be both at the same time, that it must be one or the other. That there may be some argument of some legal point over using any overseas sourced steel and reworking it a LOT may be one thing but to use the copyrighted name of an overseas company on a USA labeled item seems almost to be an insult to both.

Additionally, Customs and the FTC are different agency’s and what one requires or does not require does not affect or have a bearing on the others requirements. (That was an abbreviated version of what I read in a Customs
website note.)

now if any one and i mean any one whishes to offer evidance to the contary Please do so !! also postive comments welcom! yea go ahead rate me on trolling...

 

[shao.fu.tzer]

I know this is an old thread and I'm sorry, but since no one ever said anything, I feel like I need to step in on this one. If you'd actually read the links that you yourself posted at the bottom of the page you'd realize that it IS NOT ILLEGAL TO STAMP AN ATS-34 BLADE MADE IN THE USA. Anyone that takes some time to read the articles in detail will understand that. As long as the blade is ground and the knife assembled here, then it is indeed Made in the USA. If a piece of African driftwood washed up on the beach in Cape Cod, and someone cut it up and made a chair out of it - would he be breaking the law by labelling it as being MADE IN THE USA? Should he label it Made in Africa? Ok, now what if Hitachi made a bar of steel out of US iron ore, shipped the steel back to here, where someone made a knife out of it - what should that be labelled? I think most of the anti-Japanese and pro-Made in the USA sentiment today is perpetrated by bigoted, close-minded individuals.

Shao

Standing up for "USA" and were it is used! Many companies would have you believe that if they grind and heat treat the steel they can then say that it is USA but this is NOT true! Many will attempt to say “ a change in the law in the “X 90’s” allows us to import and stamp USA on it if we do “x amount of work on the product and “X” % [normally they quote 80% or 90% of the value or material or what ever sounds good,] and we meet that requirement! Then they will qualify the statement with an ‘I Think’, but they will not admit they are pu$$y footing around the LAW!
I for one am pi$$ed off at this practice and call on every American or any other that is glad to live here to email or write about that they will not buy questionable items with USA stamped on them! I have contacted one company that has ATS-34 a JAP Trade Mark on a blade stamped USA, which is illegal! Any other company using ATS-34 with the blade stamped USA is breaking the law and you the knife collecting public should contact them about it and ask for them to stop. Now to address some rants:

edited for grammar

 

[Cougar Allen]

This thread is a year old.

 

[rapidriverknife1]

Spam is not welcome on this forum.
-Cougar Allen :{)
http://www.mailmsg.com/sounds/spam-song.wav

 

[TexasNativeDRJH]

Edited after re-reading some posts

 

[shao.fu.tzer]

This thread is a year old.

Sorry, I'll try to exercise more self control next time. I wasn't here a year ago to answer.

Shao

 

[110 Dave]

I know this is an old thread and I'm sorry, but since no one ever said anything, I feel like I need to step in on this one. If you'd actually read the links that you yourself posted at the bottom of the page you'd realize that it IS NOT ILLEGAL TO STAMP AN ATS-34 BLADE MADE IN THE USA. Anyone that takes some time to read the articles in detail will understand that. As long as the blade is ground and the knife assembled here, then it is indeed Made in the USA. If a piece of African driftwood washed up on the beach in Cape Cod, and someone cut it up and made a chair out of it - would he be breaking the law by labelling it as being MADE IN THE USA? Should he label it Made in Africa? Ok, now what if Hitachi made a bar of steel out of US iron ore, shipped the steel back to here, where someone made a knife out of it - what should that be labelled? I think most of the anti-Japanese and pro-Made in the USA sentiment today is perpetrated by bigoted, close-minded individuals.

Shao



edited for grammar

why bother to edit for gramer when you are so wrong! you must be useing a translater device to not understand....
the law plainly states that if the main componat (in the case of a knife it is the steel) is inmportated then you can not stamp usa on it and buck admits that it gets the steel from haitchy soem thign... and ats is an jap ownen trade mark and i am not a big goated closeminded individual... i have every respect for the japinesse steel and knife makers... ats 34 is used for table ware in japan and inportatred here as table ware also ans as raw steel for table ware... which is s cheep non edge holding steel ....
now thaqt same usa knife can advertise sambarstag as it only comesfrom inda or related locations were the stags grow... note buck has stoped useing ats 34 and likely because it WAS agenst teh law to stamp it USA ...
so take it back i am not a biggoated close minded ind.. i was right
note import laws are seperat from the labeling law and you have to read both links and READ the example were it says if themain part is not usa in some thing like a lawn mower and its steel.

 

[110 Dave]

This thread is a year old.

thread mover cougar
sir
....
the discuson did concern it self with knives but not "knife law" but only in that it concerned the use leagle use of USA stamped on a knife useing a non usa steel. thus it is a import law issue not of concern to thoes in complance who leagly id the knives made in the usa.

the primary subject was XXXxxXXX inc. use of USA on a non a usa sorce material product.
this non complance with us law discuson

that a question of such importance comes up in a forum and it appears that it may have had a direct impact on the choices made by a knife maker then that thread should have been left in that forum were it had its impact
{edited: as i may be wrong as to were i posted this first}


i will how ever bow to your greater wisdon of the better operation of the forums should you decide to leave it here in this forum and also relise that you Have control fo the edit and banshment button
i felt i had privlage to answer his charges...
yours truly dave, ss usn ret

 

[ausjulius]

Well, technically if you buy any knife made of ATS-34 then the steel itself is not made in the USA. It's made by Hitachi Steels.

154cm is the American made equivelant of ATS-34.

But that is a raw material and I don't think it applies to getting a "Made In USA" stamp.

no if its uesing jap steel i would understand that it would be made in japan, china or elsewhere , if im correct your government blocks or taxes steel imports so no maker would use the japanese steel in the us if they have steel of the same quality and the same price???

 

[ausjulius]

Huh? There is no CHINA in U.S. possession.

??? ide think he means guam,, one of your pacific colonies,,, the natives have mostly been moved out and replaces with sweatshop compounds , ,, these compounds are outside u.s. law ,, ,, as is other points on the islans in the area,, many normaly illegal activities are inguaged ion the islands,,
much slave labour,, (being locking into living quaters and being not allowed to go out,, being payed 50$ a month and being charged more than you earn to live ,, when you cant leave,, then being forced into organised prostitution,,, , lots of the time a side income for the sweatshop owners,,, not so good,
well that might be what hes talking about,, or maybe the u.s. just owns a chunk of china

 

[110 Dave]

no the law does not worry that ats 34 ia imported in to the us
only that it is NOT stamped with USA .
and the law reads that if the major componet raw materal is not usa sourced then it can not be made in usa stamped ... raw ore can be imported and refinded but if it is steel it does notmater how much work they do it is still imported steel...
yes in todays age no computer, tv or auto is made in usa only assumbled.
i have much resptect for the knife and steel makers in other countrys and have owned many knives stamped with other then usa.
it is jest that ats 34 is not a usa made steel- it is a copy of a usa steel so it can not be usa stamped no mater how much work is done to it includeing melting down.
i have complant only with thoes that missrepsent some thing.
i collect XXXX knives and made my unhappness with ats 34 and it being stamped usa known to them. i also mailed a copy of the law to their leagle department . XXXX has stoped selling ats 34 on us made knives.
so did one person make a diffrence? who knows... i like to feel that i did have some impute to that decision to stay with in the law.

 

[110 Dave]

??? ide think he means guam,, one of your pacific colonies,,, the natives have mostly been moved out and replaces with sweatshop compounds , ,, these compounds are outside u.s. law ,, ,, as is other points on the islans in the area,, many normaly illegal activities are inguaged ion the islands,,
much slave labour,, (being locking into living quaters and being not allowed to go out,, being payed 50$ a month and being charged more than you earn to live ,, when you cant leave,, then being forced into organised prostitution,,, , lots of the time a side income for the sweatshop owners,,, not so good,
well that might be what hes talking about,, or maybe the u.s. just owns a chunk of china

sadly that does exist.... i and a few other have made our feelings known to our law makers... money from lobbyest seems to speek over the voice of the people.
it is like Git-MO in cuba some thign to be ashamed of but not much we can do about it but hope it gets on evennig news... you do have my respect... by the way what knives do you collect?

 

[Thirteenth Star]

Are Voyagers made in Seki City? If not, does anybody know where in Japan they're made?

 

[txmoonwolf]

Huh? There is no CHINA in U.S. possession.

I've heard there is a Chinese Island named "Usa." Ergo, anything made there is stamped "Made in Usa" and it's legit. Note this is not the same as "Made in USA"!

Matt in Tx