Are liner locks the new lockback?

[cmd]

Reading posts from a few years ago I noticed that back then when people asked for advice and suggestions on which knife to buy, they would often say "just as long as it's not a lockback".

It seems that back then a lot of people thought the lockback design was out-dated and inferior to the newer and "better" locks, including linerlocks.

Fast forward to today and some very desirable production folders are lockbacks, like the Spyderco Manix, and lots of people have nothing but disdain for all knives with a linerlock.

There are not many companies making linerlocks right now, but there is one that I really like and own - the Benchmade 690. To me it proves that a linerlock when done right is a very good thing.

Do you think linerlocks will become popularity again?

 

[dennis75]

hmm, i think lockbacks and linerlocks are here to stay and will remain to have their true followers. i think the current trend is heading towards the framelocks though........

 

[chucklehead]

its just part of life: "everything old is new again"


if bell bottoms made a come back, so can anything else.

 

[biogon]

I think the vast majority of custom/handmade knives being made in the LinerLock format gives testament to its ease of construction and relative security.

Spyderco loves lockbacks and their new innovative ones; Benchmade has the AXIS, CS and SOG have their AXIS-knockoffs (hah just kidding; I have just forgotten what they are... UltraLock and ArcLock?) -- but otherwise, which major manufacturing company doesn't use linerlocks?

I think most of the other production knife companies still do -- S&W/Taylor, Al Mar, Buck, CRKT, Emerson, Kershaw (I lump the framelock with the linerlock because of the physics of its mechanism), MOD, Microtech (well... ehh... nevermind), Vtech...

William Henry has recently announced they are abandoning the linerlock format for the button/plunge lock format, which I think is a nifty thing. I'm just worried what happens if the single button spring fails....

-j

 

[STR]

The lock back is the old standby that was made famous by Buck in the 110 folding hunter. It is strong and tried and true.


The liner lock is not as strong but the fact that the knife with this style of lock can be pulled out of your pocket, opened, used for a cutting task and then closed and put back in your pocket all with one hand makes it so appealing that the compromise in lock strength is overlooked. So long as the liner lock is not abused this lock holds up pretty well over time.

Some think the frame lock is stronger than the liner lock but only in some cases where the metal has not been ground thin for the bend. As the old saying goes a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Where the metal is ground thin to near the same thickness as a .050 or even an .040 liner lock the strength is probably about the same.

 

[biogon]

With framelocks, part of the strength is the lockbar's resistance to bowing as well as the thicker engagement area.

The first prevents artificial shortening of the lockbar, and the second increases friction on the mate area.

Both help reduce slippage, which is the primary mode of failure on the linerlock/framelock format. The weakest link is usually the lockbar/tang mate area, not the lockbar itself.

The framelock is therefore almost always stronger than a linerlock, even if the relief is cut to the same thickness as a linerlock.

Also, I can open and close a mid-back lockback (like the Manix) with one hand fairly easily. (Just not a true lockback like the 110.)

-j

 

[STR]

I can open and close mid lock knives like my Cold Steel Vaquero with one hand also, but I have dropped them at times trying to do this so I'd be hesitant to say it is a one hander like you could call a liner lock or frame lock.

I agree the mate area where the lock and blade meet are the critical area. The grind angle of the blade seems to have more to do with the failures or no failures of the lock to work. But it also has to do with how far in the lock is allowed to travel.

I've found in my own hand made folders that leaving the blade area just a bit rough instead of highly polished seems to help keep the lock from slipping but I know that with proper machining they can be made to mate together pretty well. I just don't have that kind of machining tools available for my hobby.

About six months ago I bought two of the Kershaw frame locks from Wal-Mart. These locks were not strong at all. I believe it was the Vapor if I remember correctly. At least that is what I think it was called. I returned two of them back to back after the purchase because the locks failed and bent at the grind area where it was thin and caused the blade to wobble lose from there after. This was simply from just forcing the knife into cardboard to make cat play boxes by cutting out holes for them to go in and out of. Needless to say I was unimpressed. I went with the Scallion after these and it has held up fine compared to the Vapors.

 

[Megalobyte]

While I don't really believe linerlocks have fallen in favor as far as you are saying, I do think many people, people knowledgable of knives, are questioning the design, and with good reason, it is apparently a design that while easy to make, is not so easy to make correctly, as is evidenced by the vast number of liner locks that have defective locks, and, unfortunately, this is just as common on expensive customs, as production knives in my experience. I have had liner locks from some of the most popular custom makers, makers who are thought to make very hard core knives, and the slightest whack on my hand to the spine caused the lock to fail. And yet, how often do you hear of, or experience a quality lockback failing?

A well made liner or framelock can be extremely strong, and if made properly, can be resistant to inadvertant disengagement, but, I see far too many defective linerlocks to fully trust them with my fingers, and feel comforatble slicing away into dense materials with total abandon. A few liner/framelocks that come at least close to being trustworthy are made by Strider, Chris Reeve, JW Smith, Tom Mayo, and maybe a few others I can't think of right now. But, even among these best makers, I still wouldn't trust one fully, or even partially until I tested the particular knife, I have seen defective locks from even these guys who I think are at the top.

However, with the exception of Spyderco, very few production and custom makers are designing or producing heavy duty lockbacks, in the custom world, lockbacks are generally only found on the fancier, more delicate knives.

The one notable exception is the Extrema Ratio line of knives, which are without doubt, the most heavy duty lockbacks I have ever seen, they have that thick, overbuilt framelock feel, but are lockbacks, and massively constructed, I personally would trust a properly made, heavy duty lockback like the ER knives, over any liner or framelock. But, of course, they are difficult to open and close one handed, opening of course is easy, unlocking and closing with the same hand isn't so easy.

 

[Kickaha]

I can't vote on this poll, but I think liner locks are a fixture until something better / cheaper comes along. I've only had one liner lock I was leary of, and I sent it back to the manufacturer, who replaced it. If there are no obvious flaws in manufacture, the liner lock is ideal for the light-duty user, like me.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Liner locks aren't out of favor, and will probably never disappear. However, the popularity of liner locks. One reason is just technology moving. As the liner lock appeared to be an improvement over the lockback (which was the main lock format for many years), and allowed makers who adopted it early to get a leg up on their competitors, so too do new lock appear sexier than the liner lock.

More substantively, liner locks have been developing a well-deserved reputation for finickiness and unreliability. That's a problem the lockback really didn't have. The lockback has "come back" because there was never really a problem with it; it just got old and boring, and wasn't silky smooth. The liner lock's execution challenges are more alarming than just "old and boring", and (hopefully) that will keep it from making a comeback.

Joe

 

[cognitivefun]

Yes...arguably my strongest folder is my Extrema Ratio MPC which uses a lockback design. Even without the "safety" it seems like it is just about impossible to budge with the lock engaged, and with the "safety" it would take huge forces to budge this lock.

The other issue it seems to me with liner locks is poor resistance to repeated lateral stresses.

Repeated lateral stresses can make those locks fail.

Framelocks feel more reliable to me in this area. Can the same lateral stress make a framelock fail?

 

[Bowzer]

My feeling is that it really depends on the maker or manufacturer putting in their work to make a quality linerlock or framelock. I think it is difficult to make a quality linerlock or framelock with a manufacturing operation that slaps their knives together, aiming for maximum volume and profit margin. These are also inherently dangerous locks in the closing of the knife. I feel that the linerlock is also a weaker design than the lockback or AXIS-type lock for heavier duty applications.

This being said, I agree with others here that the linerlock is not going away anytime soon. This is mostly due to the ease of opening and closing a linerlock as opposed to the lockback or others. Reliability problems with the linerlock will continue to fuel research toward lock designs that are both stronger and still easy to use.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I am impressed with the security of a CRKT M18 I have that has a secondary lock that prevents the liner lock from moving back to start position. Any other maker using a secondary lock?

 

[STR]

My CRKT Serengeti has an impressive frame lock also.

I think folders in general have always been a compromise. You give up strength for convenience to carry a folder.

Some guys just aren't meant for folders regardless of how strong the lock is. These types should just stick with fixed blades IMO.

Personally I've only had three locks fail on me in my life. The two Kershaw Vapor linerlocks and my first lock back Buck 110 which I abused very much as a kid. One day it just failed on me and never locked again. But that was really my fault and not the knife's fault. I used to throw it and stick it into trees. It took an amazing amount of abuse before it did finally fail though. Much more than any liner or frame lock would I'm sure.

I've always been very comfortable with the locks on Cold Steels big folders. They seem pretty stout to me in both their liner lock and lock back designs.

 

[cognitivefun]

I am impressed with the security of a CRKT M18 I have that has a secondary lock that prevents the liner lock from moving back to start position. Any other maker using a secondary lock?

Extrema Ratio has one on its lockbacks.

 

[biogon]

I am impressed with the security of a CRKT M18 I have that has a secondary lock that prevents the liner lock from moving back to start position. Any other maker using a secondary lock?

Secondary locks... love 'em.

CRKT uses the Lake and Walker -- the LAWKS on their linerlocks.
Extrema Ratio uses the cross-bolt on their lockbacks.
MOD uses a catch on their plungelocks.

Neat stuff. People don't tend to like them because 1- they forget to activate them or 2- they inadvertently activate and they can't unlock the knife as quickly.

To me... I would rather have a knife that couldn't close in middle of duty, rather that one that wouldn't stay open in middle of duty.

-j

 

[Thomas Linton]

Secondary locks... love 'em.

CRKT uses the Lake and Walker -- the LAWKS on their linerlocks.
Extrema Ratio uses the cross-bolt on their lockbacks.
MOD uses a catch on their plungelocks.

Neat stuff. People don't tend to like them because 1- they forget to activate them or 2- they inadvertently activate and they can't unlock the knife as quickly.

To me... I would rather have a knife that couldn't close in middle of duty, rather that one that wouldn't stay open in middle of duty.

-j

I cannot see the downside. 1) If there is no time to activate, you are no worse off than with a knife that lacks the secondary lock. 2) What's the big rush on closing?

 

[GSW]

I have a couple MOD knives (Tempest & Hornet) that seem to have solid liner locks. I've been happy with them.

What exactly is a frame lock?

 

[kamkazmoto]

Frame locks and others like the Axis lock are just the newest thing on the block but the linerlock won't go away. Properly done is a strong, cost effective aesthetically pleasing lock.

 

[STR]

Frame locks are just like a liner lock in function only thicker because it is made from the frame of the knife body instead of a separate liner incorporating the lock. On some like Kershaw knives I've seen they have a thin spot on them at the bend usually to the thinness of the liner locks being made.

On others like my Serengeti Folder by CRKT the whole lock is thick and strong. Pic shows the frame lock with safety engaged but it is hard to see. You can just make it out if you look to the left of where the lock and blade meet.

With the safety on the lock won't give even if starts to move from excessive force on the blade. The safety stop prevents it from moving far enough to allow the knife to close. While still not quite a fixed blade in strength it is an improvement in design.