Are liner locks the new lockback?

[notdos]

The linerlock is here to stay imo. It was not only an improvment mechanically over the lockback but asthetically as well.
While the Framelock is certainly more substantial than the linerlock, I don't believe that it is such an improvement as to replace it.

 

[allenC]

I think liner-locks will continue to be used because they are cheap to make and they allow for a wide variety of handle shapes.

But I also think that the better knife makers will seek better locks, like the Benchmade Axis-lock or the Spyderco Compression-lock.

I believe that a blade lock must be reliable above all else, and liner-locks are not dependable.

Think about this:
Michael Walker is the father of the modern liner-lock and he is also part designer of the Lake And Walker Knife safety (LAWKS).
Even he saw that the design was flawed and needed a safety mechanism.

To each his own, but I'll never buy another liner-lock.

Good luck,
Allen.

 

[Thomas Linton]

The linerlock is here to stay imo. It was not only an improvment mechanically over the lockback but asthetically as well.
While the Framelock is certainly more substantial than the linerlock, I don't believe that it is such an improvement as to replace it.

If you would be so kind, how is a liner lock a mechanical improvement over a lockback? One-hand speed closure?

 

[STR]

Liner locks are an improvement for the simple reason that they are the easiest to make of all three we have talked about here.

Without the advent of the Walker style lock we probably wouldn't have as many people into the craft of folder making as a hobbyist or professional. There probably wouldn't be as many members in the knife makers guild either.

Personally, after making all three styles I have to say I really enjoy doing the liner lock the best. But I've done lock backs too that have turned out fine. They are just harder for me to make and contain more parts to do so.
Frame locks are hard if you don't have tools to handle cutting out thicker steel but otherwise no worse than a liner lock.

I think that is what notdos meant when he said it was a 'mechanical' improvement over the lock back but I'm not trying to speak for him. Just stating how I see it.

I'm glad the Walker style liner lock was invented. It opened the door for me to make folders. I made those type for family and friends for years before even attempting to do a lock back and probably would never have gotten to that stage if it were not for the liner lock to break me in so to speak.

 

[rev_jch]

linerlocks are nothing new. They have been around since the late 1800's, early 1900's. Most linerlocks we are use to seeing around are the modern walker locks, which have a detent to hold the blade closed in the handle and have no backspring. walker locks have been around now for quite a few years. 25+ ?

 

[Architect]

Liner locks aren't out of favor, and will probably never disappear. However, the popularity of liner locks. One reason is just technology moving. As the liner lock appeared to be an improvement over the lockback (which was the main lock format for many years), and allowed makers who adopted it early to get a leg up on their competitors, so too do new lock appear sexier than the liner lock.

More substantively, liner locks have been developing a well-deserved reputation for finickiness and unreliability. That's a problem the lockback really didn't have. The lockback has "come back" because there was never really a problem with it; it just got old and boring, and wasn't silky smooth. The liner lock's execution challenges are more alarming than just "old and boring", and (hopefully) that will keep it from making a comeback.

Joe

I don't have too much to add, as I think Joe pretty much pegged the situation.

As far as "factory" knives, we will see what happens when the assisted-opener fad exhausts itself. The liner-lock lends it self to an easy aesthetic, since you bascially can slap anything over the liners - this lends itself to being able to make the same design appear "new" and "improved" by simply changing the scales, whereas the integral liner-lock (framelock) has less flexibility in this area.

I personally would hope to see more button-locks. I have had two (and now third) of the WH button locks in fairly continuous use now for over a year and I have had one (only) incidence of the lock failing, when my hand moved onto the button when I was cutting up some very thick cardboard boxes (i.e., my grip slipped) and I was pulling the knife back up and out of the cardboard (not a smart move, always stroke down when pulling your knife out of a sticky situation). Ohter than that, no problems of any kind, just happiness.

 

[bladefixation2]

I dont think one is necessarily 'better' than the other, I think they both have their place.

I have some nice linerlock knives that I wouldnt use for heavy use but for a general use knife they are very nice and easy to use.

I also have a couple of nice lockbacks, I trust these locks a lot more and would put the knives to harder work, however they arent as easy to open and close.

Personal preference and the use the knife will be put to determine which is 'best'. A massive lockback style lock such as the one on my Extrema Ratio Fulcrum II would be silly on a gents folder, and a small liner lock like the one on my Fallkniven mod P would be silly on a massive hard use folder like the Extrema Ratio.

Everything in its place.

 

[cognitivefun]

A couple of points:

1. The Strider AR and GB -- don't they each use a liner lock? They at least have a reputation for being very very hard use and tough knives. So is it possible to execute a liner lock so that it is quite tough and okay for hard use?

2. My impression though is that liner locks tend to wear with lateral stresses and eventually there is bladeplay. This can be cumulative. My question is this: Is failure sudden or can probable failure be easily spotted in advance?

 

[Joe Talmadge]

A couple of points:

1. The Strider AR and GB -- don't they each use a liner lock? They at least have a reputation for being very very hard use and tough knives. So is it possible to execute a liner lock so that it is quite tough and okay for hard use?

Cog -- loads of knives have reputations for being very hard use and tough knives, but causing failure with simple tests hasn't been hard. I haven't tested those Striders specifically, but I always caution up front that the name on the knife isn't a magic totem ... these locks are just dang hard to do right, consistently.

Regarding your second question, it depends. Liner lock lock-up depends on liner/tang geometry. That geometry changes as the liner wears and marches across the tang, there are subtle changes in the frame, etc. Sometimes, a lock that has been passing with flying colors, one day just starts failing. That's for a lock geometry related failure. If it's a wear related failure, yeah, they happen slowly. The lock slowly moves towards the opposite scale until finally it's done for.

Joe

 

[Ratcoon]

Hi,

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I seem to feel an air of negativism on liner locks. Would you all avoid liner locks if you have a choice? Since most knifes are in general bought because we like it, it would seem that the knowledgeable group will not buy it and the current sales of liner locks are generated by the less knowledgeable and newbies like us.

 

[Johnny11758]

I have two of Bob Dozier's custom folding hunters, and their Michael Walker-style liner locks are perfect examples of liner locks at their best. Lock up is rock-solid. One-hand operation is easy and oh so smooth. Bob is a master who obviously has great respect for the liner lock.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I'm still waiting for a statement of the advantage -- to the user -- of the liner lock vs. back lock. I give you that the back lock is slower to close and may require two hands to close. I've never seen that as a particular issue.

I have heard that it's easier to manufacture BUT that it's hard to get right (all credit to those who do "get it right").

(I have a LW Harsey, a Wegner Pro Hunter, and a Spyderco Military. They lock up fine and pass the spine wack test. Other than that, it's back locks, Axis, and LAWKS.)

 

[biogon]

Joe,

Since I have your attention...

What's your take on radiused vs. straight cut tangs?

The radiused ones seem better because if done correctly the last bit (right before the blade "falls off" the tang) the mate area is exactly perpendicular to the force.

This is contrasted to the straight-cut tang, which is angled (and thus more prone to slippage).

On the other hand, the radiused tang actually has a steeper angle the more you go to the obverse/front of the knife, so it should in theory be easier to slip from the left to the right.

Empirical data: I've had a number of radius cut tangs SLIP, but never disengage. I've had a number of straight-cut tangs SLIP and subsequently disengage.

-j

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Hi,

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I seem to feel an air of negativism on liner locks. Would you all avoid liner locks if you have a choice? Since most knifes are in general bought because we like it, it would seem that the knowledgeable group will not buy it and the current sales of liner locks are generated by the less knowledgeable and newbies like us.

Ratcoon, it's not just an air of negativism ... it's downright negativism. There is a minority of folks who don't trust liner locks for anything other than light use. I count myself firmly among them. Every year, as more people have more experiences with liner locks, there's more of us. The group is a pretty sizeable minority now, and among those who don't have such firm convictions on liner locks, many seem to be drifting towards other lock formats anyway.

 

[Architect]

Hi,

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I seem to feel an air of negativism on liner locks. Would you all avoid liner locks if you have a choice? Since most knifes are in general bought because we like it, it would seem that the knowledgeable group will not buy it and the current sales of liner locks are generated by the less knowledgeable and newbies like us.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that sales of liner locks are generated by newbies.

I for one avoid liner locks. There are many lock designs out there that are superior to liner locks, although many are not mass produced.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

biogon: one of my main worries is always the tang angle. The higher the angle, the slower the lock wears and the easier it is to purposely unlock -- but it can be easier to accidently unlock as well.

Ratcoon: following up to Architect's response, if it didn't come out in my post: there are many very very knowledgeable knife people who see no problems with the liner lock as a lock format. Liner locks are not just a "newbie" thing.

 

[SilverFoxKnows]

in the form of a BM 800 (lefty). But I'm not a Commando, I'm a suburan office worker who takes the occasional hiking/camping trip. The most demanding thing I've asked of a folder as of late is trimming fuel line on the old Bug or cutting the plastic packing straps that come on the cases of copy paper. Even my last camping trip was in the desert, not much woodcraft in the Anza-Borrego. That being said I've started to look at other knives to replace it. Not because I distrust Benchmade's execution of the liner lock but because I want something plain-edge that carries tip up. Maybe an 806D2, the AFCK fits my hand really well and I like the hole better than the stud. But if I ever get around to having a good leather sheath made for my Buck 110...

Frank

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Ratcoon, 15 years ago, the "knowledgable knife people" were promoting linerlocks.

Biogon, Spyderco's Military uses an arc ramp, but the "radius" is offset so there is a small "hook" on the ramp. when pressure is applied the tang won't slip past the "hook". This was a Vince Ford innovation to the linerlock about 10 years ago. It's just another of the "details" involved in linerlock production. Linerlocks are still evolving. Lawks, is an example. (A Ron Lake, Michael Walker innovation)

As Joe said, linerlock are difficult to make "right", but some are "righter" than others. Wear is a problem (so materials are critical), geometry is a problem, length of the spring is a problem, interface, distance from pivot to the bottom of the inerface, etc. etc.

Lockbacks likewise have their inherent problems. Many of the same.

There are many locks on the market these days. All of them have advantages and disadvantages.

Thomas,

Linerlocks have less of a bias keeping the closed, which generally makes them easier to open. (also easier to inertia open) Linerlocks require less space to fit into a knife which offers more design options. Linerlocks ae easy to close one handed. Linerlocks to not require as much tang polishing to get a smooth "walk". etc.

Lockbacks have a better bias for keep the blade closed. Lockbacks will often have a locking "sound" which many prefer. Lockbacks have a hundred years of history to have evolved more. Lockbacks have a larger interface in the locking "joint". etc.

sal

 

[biogon]

Sal,

You know... That "Fail-safe linerlock" is REALLY nifty. I saw it in Bob Terzuola's book on the tactical folder. I thought it was a Terzuola/Glesser thing... guess it was a Ford thing.

It makes me respect the Military so much more. It is a really smart idea and it makes that Military work that much better.

I almost implemented it on a design I had with Eddie Baca -- only reason we couldn't is because the blade stock thickness was 0.125" and the linerlock was 0.100". Since the lock didn't pass the lip (when new at least), we couldn't use it.

If I could get the right parts, I would put optional LAWKS on all the knives I designed. It's not a substitute for getting the geometry right, but it does put my heart at ease when I kick it in.

Thanks for the input and take care.

-jon

 

[Ratcoon]

Hi,

One problem I have from this thread is that I now view my liner lock knives with a great deal of suspicion. Each time I hold one open my anxiety level goes up and I look at it and say to myself "when are you going to cut the hand that holds you".

I shook one liner lock and the blade flips out and ended in the lock position, is this normal or would you consider it a bit loose. I don't think I'll clip a naked liner lock in my pocket. I'll put it in a pouch first.

How do we scrutinize our liner locks to make sure they are the "more right" category? I don't wish to hit the spine too hard in case that will trigger it to close on me the next next next time I use it. Neither do I want to stick it into a hard cardboard and stress it laterally by twisting it. Can we just visually inspect it and do some less stressful tests that will not weaken further an already considered weak locking system.

Thanks very much in advance.