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Are Sebenzas a "hard use" knife ?
- Thread starter The_300
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2001
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- 63
I have abused the heck out of my large Seb. I think Scott had it right - When you are the best, you don't need to beat your chest about it, just let the knife do the talking. I have used the Seb to split rib cages on whitetails from sternum to neck; try that with your average folder and it will end up bent backwards and useless. Chris makes a great folder. Not sure I would agree it is pretty, except in its simplicty of design and function, the same way Mr Glock's pistols are pretty. I turst my fingers to it, and that is saying a lot. Bob
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2006
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- 16
3 letter, P S E, Pure Simple Efficient, not more...
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2004
- Messages
- 325
I have been a fan of both Striders and Sebenza for several years, but recently have gravitated towards my large Reg Sebbie as my favorite EDC. It does everything I ask of it, from opening boxes, slicing cardboard, scraping, whittling wood, and yes,sometimes even some very light prying!
Get one, you will NOT regret it! :thumbup:
Get one, you will NOT regret it! :thumbup:
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2006
- Messages
- 554
I've always thought the Sebenza was a "hard use" knife. I recently found out different. I had to cut out some sheetrock which I gladly grabbed the Sebbie. It cut it great, but when I went to sharpen it on Saturday, I noticed the blade was chipped in two places.
I've cut sheetrock many times with many knives, and was highly disappointed with what happend!!
I've cut sheetrock many times with many knives, and was highly disappointed with what happend!!
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
- Messages
- 1,649
wait, you're upset because a knife chipped while you were cutting rock??? did I miss something? I mean I've chipped through some concrete and mortar with a strider and it chipped, but I expected that, they came out fine though
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
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- 2,955
I have 3 large sebbies (2 classics and 1 regular). I EDC one of the classics.
I agree with So Lo that the sebbie design consists of everything that a well designed knife should have and since he listed them all I won't repeat them here.
As far as strength of build, I'd say that a piece of S30V slotted between two slabs of Ti is always going to be a winner.
From my own personal experience I would only rate one other knife in the same class and that is the Strider AR. It's made of the same materials (+G10 scales), BUT it is beefier in all respects and therefore probably not a fair comparison.
I'm not sure I would put the SNG in the same class because it only has one Ti side with a slab of G10 for the front. In my mind that's just not as good as Ti on both sides.
I agree with So Lo that the sebbie design consists of everything that a well designed knife should have and since he listed them all I won't repeat them here.
As far as strength of build, I'd say that a piece of S30V slotted between two slabs of Ti is always going to be a winner.
From my own personal experience I would only rate one other knife in the same class and that is the Strider AR. It's made of the same materials (+G10 scales), BUT it is beefier in all respects and therefore probably not a fair comparison.
I'm not sure I would put the SNG in the same class because it only has one Ti side with a slab of G10 for the front. In my mind that's just not as good as Ti on both sides.
Sheetrock is the thing internal walls are built out of. It should be no problem for knives.
The grind has a lot of effect on chipping. If it is too thin and not polished, it can chip. I would probably work them out and give it another try.
Sheetrock is a proprietary name for USGs gypsum board. It is a gypsum panel sandwiched between two heavy paper face sheets. It is not stone, and not concrete.
Gypsum actually seems like kind of an interesting test medium for an EDC knife. It is definitely something I would try to avoid working on with my EDC knife, but also a good example of something I might want to trim quickly when another tool is not immediately available. It is a relatively soft, homogeneous material, but highly abrasive, and with relatively hard particles.
patrickcudd, when you say you were "cutting" the gyp board, are you talking about scoring it or actually slicing it?
This whole "hard use" thing is kind of vague. Much of the discussion often centers around people wanting to use knives for absurd purposes, or to compete with them on the basis of which knife can withstand more abuse. Of course it is desirable for a knife to be able to withstand abuse, but seems a little more important how the knife functions for its intended purpose.
In other words, I would be more concerned with a tool being too overbuilt to function well for common tasks that I would with it being too under-built to accomplish tasks that it shouldn't be used for in the first place.
A Sebenza is a relatively stout everyday pocket cutting tool. I look at it as more of an all-purpose tool than an emergency tool. It needs to be heavy enough to be sturdy, but not so heavy that it becomes impractical to use.
IMO, the SnG and XM-18 are a little more heavily built than the Sebenza. This makes them better suited for some emergency or abusive tasks, but less well suited for some of the more common tasks, like cutting fruit, cheese or cardboard. My general feeling is that a small fixed blade makes a better emergency tool than a folder. Compare a standard AD, a .17 GW or an SA to an AR or GB. The fixed blades are vastly superior in terms of their ability to withstand abuse. The only possible advantages of the folders are convenience and low profile.
The thing I really find interesting in all of this is how the various blade steel/heat treat/grind geometry combinations perform for reasonable cutting tasks. It does seem that there have been some issues with CRK's S30V chipping within the parameters of normal duty. My personal experience with this is more along the lines of very fine chipping, certainly nothing catastrophic. The wear modality of the blade is one where very small chips are removed, as opposed to one where the edge is bent or rolled, as is often the case with INFI or many tool steels. The immediate implication of this is that in order to be restored, the edge must have material removed, rather than simply being realigned with a steel.
My guess is that the reason more fine chipping is cited with CRK than with Strider products has more to do with grind geometry than heat treat. The CRK blades are just thinner, which also makes them cut better than the Striders. So there you have a basic trade-off: More emphasis on daily use, less on emergency abuse.
It seems like the advantage of S30V is that it has high corrosion resistance and yet is capable of taking and holding a pretty good edge. Its downsides are a lack of toughness and relative difficulty of re-sharpening. Both of those latter two ideas derive from the micro-chipping. So maybe Strider's approach to this is to leave the blade thicker behind the edge. Then you have all the corrosion resistance and a more robust package, but less cutting efficiency. Another approach would be to use a different steel. Presumably CRK would have used A2 on the Sebenza if they were primarily interested in toughness and cutting geometry, but at the expense of corrosion resistance. The decision to use S30V, and to grind it out thinner, is consistent with the idea of the folder as EDC, not EmergencyDC, which I generally agree with.
Gypsum actually seems like kind of an interesting test medium for an EDC knife. It is definitely something I would try to avoid working on with my EDC knife, but also a good example of something I might want to trim quickly when another tool is not immediately available. It is a relatively soft, homogeneous material, but highly abrasive, and with relatively hard particles.
patrickcudd, when you say you were "cutting" the gyp board, are you talking about scoring it or actually slicing it?
This whole "hard use" thing is kind of vague. Much of the discussion often centers around people wanting to use knives for absurd purposes, or to compete with them on the basis of which knife can withstand more abuse. Of course it is desirable for a knife to be able to withstand abuse, but seems a little more important how the knife functions for its intended purpose.
In other words, I would be more concerned with a tool being too overbuilt to function well for common tasks that I would with it being too under-built to accomplish tasks that it shouldn't be used for in the first place.
A Sebenza is a relatively stout everyday pocket cutting tool. I look at it as more of an all-purpose tool than an emergency tool. It needs to be heavy enough to be sturdy, but not so heavy that it becomes impractical to use.
IMO, the SnG and XM-18 are a little more heavily built than the Sebenza. This makes them better suited for some emergency or abusive tasks, but less well suited for some of the more common tasks, like cutting fruit, cheese or cardboard. My general feeling is that a small fixed blade makes a better emergency tool than a folder. Compare a standard AD, a .17 GW or an SA to an AR or GB. The fixed blades are vastly superior in terms of their ability to withstand abuse. The only possible advantages of the folders are convenience and low profile.
The thing I really find interesting in all of this is how the various blade steel/heat treat/grind geometry combinations perform for reasonable cutting tasks. It does seem that there have been some issues with CRK's S30V chipping within the parameters of normal duty. My personal experience with this is more along the lines of very fine chipping, certainly nothing catastrophic. The wear modality of the blade is one where very small chips are removed, as opposed to one where the edge is bent or rolled, as is often the case with INFI or many tool steels. The immediate implication of this is that in order to be restored, the edge must have material removed, rather than simply being realigned with a steel.
My guess is that the reason more fine chipping is cited with CRK than with Strider products has more to do with grind geometry than heat treat. The CRK blades are just thinner, which also makes them cut better than the Striders. So there you have a basic trade-off: More emphasis on daily use, less on emergency abuse.
It seems like the advantage of S30V is that it has high corrosion resistance and yet is capable of taking and holding a pretty good edge. Its downsides are a lack of toughness and relative difficulty of re-sharpening. Both of those latter two ideas derive from the micro-chipping. So maybe Strider's approach to this is to leave the blade thicker behind the edge. Then you have all the corrosion resistance and a more robust package, but less cutting efficiency. Another approach would be to use a different steel. Presumably CRK would have used A2 on the Sebenza if they were primarily interested in toughness and cutting geometry, but at the expense of corrosion resistance. The decision to use S30V, and to grind it out thinner, is consistent with the idea of the folder as EDC, not EmergencyDC, which I generally agree with.
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- Jan 1, 2006
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- 1,649
ok sorry for the dumb@$$ post:foot: I have not heard it called sheet rock before
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- Nov 14, 2006
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- 627
tsiloics makes some excellent points regarding the chipping issue with S30V and the general definition of a hard use knife.
I EDC a small Sebenza and use it for any task I would use any folding knife for. You're talking a stainless steel blade, two slabs of titanium and some stainless steel screws and bushings. Strength, corrosion resistance, carryability, design, look and ergonomics are all outstanding. I would certainly call my Sebenza a "hard use knife" but that doesn't mean I'll expect it to survive something like carving concrete blocks or some of the other "test" people try.
Is the edge perhaps more fragile than other styles? Maybe, but it fits my purposes.
I EDC a small Sebenza and use it for any task I would use any folding knife for. You're talking a stainless steel blade, two slabs of titanium and some stainless steel screws and bushings. Strength, corrosion resistance, carryability, design, look and ergonomics are all outstanding. I would certainly call my Sebenza a "hard use knife" but that doesn't mean I'll expect it to survive something like carving concrete blocks or some of the other "test" people try.
Is the edge perhaps more fragile than other styles? Maybe, but it fits my purposes.
I remember when I was a kid in Scouts. We were on a camping trip, and one of the men was opening a new can of white gas. You know those inserts pressed into the spouts of the cans? He whipped out a little Kershaw folder, punched it into the insert and smacked the end of the handle down hard. The insert went flying. That's the first time I can remember having seen what I would call utility abuse of a folder. That's something I would not want to do with one of my 'Benzas. Made my gums hurt.
You could sit on a production line and do that 12 hours a day with a .195 AD, without a care in the world. But the AD is never going to cut cardboard, wood or webbing as well as the 'Benza.
I would have no hesitation whatsoever to drive my AD into a tree, girth hitch the handle, and rappel from it. Not really something I'd be too psyched on with the 'Benza, but the 'Benza cuts better.
The key to all of this is that hard use is just exactly that: Hard _use_. Not abuse. There's only so much range of duty that can be incorporated into any tool. Adding the ability to do atypical tasks at the expense of the ability to do typical tasks just doesn't make a great deal of sense.
You could sit on a production line and do that 12 hours a day with a .195 AD, without a care in the world. But the AD is never going to cut cardboard, wood or webbing as well as the 'Benza.
I would have no hesitation whatsoever to drive my AD into a tree, girth hitch the handle, and rappel from it. Not really something I'd be too psyched on with the 'Benza, but the 'Benza cuts better.
The key to all of this is that hard use is just exactly that: Hard _use_. Not abuse. There's only so much range of duty that can be incorporated into any tool. Adding the ability to do atypical tasks at the expense of the ability to do typical tasks just doesn't make a great deal of sense.
I think there are some members here who would gladly do this, put it on YouTube and sit back while the flames roar.