Are StandardsToo High for Customs?

[Peter Atwood]

Pardon me if this topic has been covered extensively in the past but even if it has, I think it deserves rehashing.

Lately I've been troubled by some of the comments I see on standards of fit and finish in custom knives. The more I hang around the knife community the more apparent it becomes that makers are being held to an incredibly high standard. There is much talk about the inferiority of factory knives and constant grumblings about makers who produce "flawed" pieces.

It seems to me thast a couple of observations are in order: First of all, when I buy a handcrafted product of any type there are alot of
considerations to make. Let's say that it is a given that the design pleased me. I then look for quality of craftsmanship and certainly do expect a high level. But I also try take into account the nature of the materials especially if they are natural and the processes used to create them or prepare them for the finished product. When determining whether a price is fair or not, usually I am trying to gauge whether the materials and the workmanship justify the price that the object commands.

But through all this I do expect some FLAWS since it is a handmade thing. For example, if I wanted perfect, I'd go down to Kmart and buy that perfectly round, perfectly white, perfectly characterlesscoffee cup. But I don't because I prefer the rougher imperfect surfaces of handmade pottery.

I want to see some character in my knife darn it! I want
to see that the edge has been beveled slightly more on one side than the other. I want to see that the blade grinds are very close but they are NOT perfect. I want to see checking in my mammoth ivory because that's what ivory does and if it didn't it would be micarta.

The flaws tell me that the knife was made by the human being and not by a machine. I can study the knife and see the processes that went into building it. I can imagine the maker struggling to fit the lock. I can see a couple of tiny scratches that just wouldn't come out and know the agony that was in his mind as he did the very best that he could to shape the material. To me such an object has a lot of meaning.

Am I saying that a maker should not strive to do his or her best? Of course not! And I'm not saying that should a maker's best be somehting that resembles flawless that I would not be delighted. But is the bar being pushed a little too high? Once people were really thrilled with the quality of some of the old knives, now they are finding flaws and complaining.

 

[Paracelsus]

I am someone who pays for knives that I think approach perfection. But what I like and what I buy is my own damn business and I don't really care what others think.

There are more than a couple long time 'famous' makers whose work seems to fall short of current standards (which are very very high) for fit and finish. That does not particularly bother me, since I by what I like. Not what others tell me I Should like. So I voted for your Last category: I don't know or care, just give me my darn knife and keep your philosophy to yourself!.

Not because I don't care about fit and finish, but because I only buy what I like, and the rest of you can go to **** for all I care!

BTW, my favorite maker produces knives which are far from perfect in nearly every way and cost a lot more than the work of another maker I collect whose work really does approach perfection. Go figure

Para

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Don't know or care at all. The knives I buy are bought because they caught my eye and the makers were people that I wanted to do business with. I have never been disappointed with the quality of any custom knife that I have purchased.

 

[Brian_Turner]

If technical perfection is the object of a buyer's direction, there are makers who are striving to attain it, and the buyer should seek them out. If they buy something less than "perfect", then only they are to blame. Keep in mind that no person can achieve perfection without countless "mistakes" to learn from in the process, not all of which will prevent a knife from performing flawlessly. Those "errors" can be as valuable to a knife user as the "perfect" knives are to a collector.

Personally, I get the most joy in finding makers who are working hard enough at their craft to make mistakes. As we used to say in water skiing, if you don't ever fall, you aren't trying hard enough. What fun is it to be safe and just follow a straight, smooth path? Eventually, it's the fumblers and experimenters who will turn out to be the true artisans, who reach heights that are beyond technical perfection.

 

[Bugs3x]

I tend to think that from the dawn of history, that artisans had to deal with high expectations from those bartering/purchasing their products. It is my guess that during the stone age, that most of the men, maybe all, maybe all women too, could do a decent job of knapping to make themselves hand tools. But, as natural talent showed itself, in the areas where the natural raw materials were in abundance, I think that some individuals probably became pretty much full time knappers and bartered their wares for the necessities of life.

The age of the computer and CAD and CNC is now enabling manufacturers to make very precise knives for relatively less money than they had to pay skilled artisans for doing many of those tasks. The benefits of economy of scale for the larger manufacturers enable them to make knives for less money than some of their competitors.

There is little doubt that the would-be knife maker is choosing to hoe a pretty long row when they get into the business. IMO, they need to differentiate themselves as much as possible from their manufacturing competition. Some succeed at this very well, being possessed of great true artisitic and design abilities. But, I think that in one sense they are stuck with the past in this area. Before CNC and CAD and water cutting, etc became widely available, they had craftsmanship as well as design, and sometimes better materials to offer. Fit and finish became a significant part of the difference between custom/handmade and manufactured knives. To a considerable extent, particularly in the last few years, the custom/handmade knife makers have charged a high premium for that craftsmanship, and hopefully design/material differences.

The material is easy. Of course, if someone puts mastadon ivory scales on a knife, they have to adjust their price from what it would be if they had chosen to use micarta instead. But, if that knife is not significantly different from a manufactured knife aside from that ivory, then lots of potential customers are going to go ahead and buy 3 or 4 manufactured knives instead.

For some reason, I think the MT LCC MA is a very good knife to use an an example which can shed some light on this. MT is known for the quality of their production, for fit and finish. They are selling a knife with a good, if not premium steel, titanium bolsters, and carbon fiber scales, with a liner lock, that has good reviews, for under $200, I believe. As one looks through the magazines and sees pictures of knives posted on the forums, one sees a lot of custom folders with about the same steel, with titanium bolsters, and with carbon fiber scales. Most of those custom/handmade folders have a price tag of $350-$700. IMO, there better be a lot of something in that higher priced knife to justify those higher prices. Given the history, as I see it, part of that has to be craftsmanship. In quite a few, I don't see the design difference that would justify doubling or trebling a price. There might be a few bucks in anodizing the custom's liners. Certainly, filework is often a large justification for that price difference. And, certainly, the "name value" of well-established makers is going to be a part of things also. (I realize that I failed to mention liners earlier. Am not aware of whether the LCC has titanium or steel liners.) But, if there isn't that filework, the maker is an unknown, then I think his craftsmanship better be noticeably better than MT's if he expects to make a living selling those knives.

Of course, one of the extremely difficult aspects of this is in the area of art/beauty/design. Unfortunately, these are often quite subjective. There may be some objective elements, but most ultimately are internal for the customer. I can think of one custom/handmade knife I've seen on the forums recently. I don't know how much it costs. I'm sure it is several hundred dollars. I really don't care about the price of the knife. I think it is ridiculous. I don't think I'd give $20 for it. For $20 or so, I can get the new CRKT Carson F4 neck knife. I would much rather have it, than I would the expensive custom. I can think of another custom maker, whom I perceive to he head and shoulders above most of his counterparts in terms of artistic and design ability, that is apparently having a decent level of success. But, I don't understand why he isn't one of the few, big, top names in the industry. Every maker out there has to deal with that completely subjective appreciation of what they make. They chose the profession, it didn't choose them. I think they have to meet the expectations of their customers if they are to succeed. Pure and simple.

 

[Melvin-Purvis]

Being that a "true" custom knife, not one of these "mix and match" handmades, is a knife that the end user/collector discussed with the maker Before it was made....and being that blade shape/grind, materials, and related features were discussed Before the knife was started....then yes, the purchaser should receive the very Best that the maker can make...and the purchaser should do his homework Before he orders...to ensure the maker is up to task, and also so that the purchaser knows the limitations of the Custom knife makers skills...

On the other hand, if the purchaser buys an "off the shelf" handmade knife by a certain/any maker, he (the purchaser) has no real recourse, in that his non-custom/custom knife is nothing more than a standard handmade version of a standard handmade knife...and calling it a "custom" doesn't change that one iota....

Again, it's up to the purchaser to do his homework, to know the maker, the quality of the makers work, and the difference between a "Handmade" knife, and a true "Custom" knife....

 

[Peter Atwood]

I think Brian and Para are closest to what I'm getting at. If you want perfection there are those trying to attain it. If you want character there are others doing that. I guess it's a seek and ye shall find situation.

Maybe a good comparison here might be the knives of SR Johnson which appear to flawless to me, and the knives of Don Fogg which may also be flawless but have a great deal of character. I think Steve's knives (that I have seen anyway) look pretty much all the same and that is an enormous technical achievement in itself. But I prefer some of the crusty character filled pieces from Don. Or Steve Swartzer. Heck I don't know, maybe I just like art knives!

Anyhow, those are some interesting and thought provoking comments. Let's here some more!

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

Not sure we should expect perfection depending upon the knife, but those standards get raised every year by new makers and makers who refuse to "sit on their skills".

Just like any profession, to hang in there for the long run it is best to keep learning and keep improving.

 

[Danbo]

I buy custom knives from these makers, because they are so good and because they can do stuff with steel that I currently cannot do. Perfection cannot be achieved, but there are makers out there who come pretty damn close and that's what I like to buy. Do I expect it? No. Strive to find perfection? Yes.

 

[budrichard]

Peter Atwood: My standards were forged 30 years ago by makers such as Corbet Sigman and Bob Loveless. New makers such as John M Smith, Greg Lightfoot, Ernest Emerson, Steve Ryan and Warren Thomas reinforce those standards. The knives I have from them are flawless! That is what I demand in other knives I purchase. To not expect that quality, may mean that you or the maker has not been exposed to these standards and therefore have no criteria on which to compare. I attend a few knife shows every year and see a lot of substandard knives where clearly the maker has neither the skill nor the standards to produce custom level cutlery. The argument about it being a hand made item and as such should have some variation, is not true for the above named knifemakers and should not be true for anyone that calls himself a knifemaker today. - Dick

 

[Paracelsus]

As a Daniel Winkler and Rich McDonald 'primitive' knife fan, I have to diasagree with you there Dick.

Sometimes artistry and design and uniqueness can compensate for some lack of technical perfection, particularly in the forged knife world where the real beauty of the knife was conferred by the magic the maker performed during heat-treatment.

On the other hand, I have a bunch of knives by other makers (e.g. Lovestrand and Denning) whose work really does approach perfection. If a certain lack of precision is introduced by the specific materials and techniques that an artist uses, it does not particularly bother me since it is the overal package that I am buying. But I would not buy a knife from a maker known for his perfection in fit and finish if the fit and finish were not up to par for His work.

I guess I look at the work of different makers differently, and it is not because I do not know what to look for, rather just the opposite

Para

 

[HermanKnives]

melvin,
i have no idea where you got the age old custom vs handmade debate from Peter's topic but it has nothing to do with it.

Peter,
i think this has alot to do with just personal taste and if the buyer is satisfied with the fits and finish of a knife for the asked price. buyers that spend 2-7k for a knife has every right to expect "perfection" but what exactly is "perfection"?

every handmade knife will have flaws in it but i feel that the "character" you are looking for depends on each individual knife and the skill of the maker. you mention some "flaws" as uneven grinds or edges as showing it was handmade rather than production and again this is simply the skill or the care, in looking over his work and evening things up, of the maker.

this all also has to do with the price range of the knife. a maker cant put in hours of "perfecting" a $200 knife and make a living from it. i have noticed over many years that taking the time to get to as "perfect" a fit, finish and quality as the maker possibly can is the difference between the average handmade knife and the masters works. a maker that settles for no less than what he is capable of rather than just getting knives out.

i have been asked to make some cheaper knives of simple construction so more people could afford a herman knife, yet when i do one of these, i just cant stop at a 600 grit hand finish on the blade because it simply looks to rough to me. i cant seem to do a simple single ground drop point when a polished double clip in contrast to the hand finished blade is so much cooler to me. i end up putting way to much time into a $200 knife simply because i am not satisfied with a lesser finished knife and lose money and time better spent on a more involved knife. i am just not in that area to make low priced using knives. i dont mean to sound uppity or think i am better than other makers, its simply what i like to make and want to put my full efforts into. getting older and my hands and shoulder joints getting stiffer every year, i want to produce the ideas in my mind that i can do while i still can

so, no! standards arent too high. every maker should always do the best work he is capable of. your "standards" are too general as there are many areas of handmade knives and as i already stated, a buyer paying 2-7k for a knife should get as perfect a knife as the maker can make, but this is totally different in a 200-600 knife. but then again picasso got millions for a woman with an eye on her cheek.....go figure. again it boils down to each individual buyer as to what any given knife is worth to him or her

 

[viper5192]

I myself don't know that true perfection can ever be had. I think to ask for it may be a bit much. The maker is making a knife for the customer/collector and the collector has to realize the maker is only human. I have seen more than a few knife I would say come close to perfection. But isn't perfevtion subjective? What is perfection for me may be crap to someone else. I say if the maker is making you a knife you should expect their best work, but try not and demand too much.

 

[Michael_Aos]

Originally posted by HermanKnives
(a bunch of stuff)

I love that avatar!

I have 4 custom knives. In order of purchase:

Mike Obenauf model 1
Cutelari Korth "Fox"
Tom Mayo TnT
Boguszewski Cobra

I can find "flaws" in each and every one of them. I have a CRK Small Sebenza and a bunch of other production knives. There's nothing I can point to that's "wrong" with any of them.

Yes, I'd say I hold customer makers to a different and higher standard that factory knives.

That will not prevent me from buying additional handmade knives, or knives from these makers.


Mike

Edit - thought it would be worth detailing the "flaws"

Obenauf - initially the detent ball on the liner was bad. Mike Fixed it, so no flaws anymore.

Fox - maybe not a "flaw" per se. The clip is too sharp, and the blade id too square and has sharp edges that shouldn't be sharp.

TnT - "wire edge". Something like alum foil still remaining on part of the blade. A couple strokes on my Sharpmaker and it's fine.

Cobra - If I try really hard, I can feel the transition between the micarta and the bolsters on one side of the knife. I understand this is trivial, and doesn't matter. I have to struggle to find / feel it. The point of this thread was about flaws, so I thought it was worth mentioning that flaws exist everywhere.

I'm thinking "princess and the pea" here, where most people would't notice a problem.

Mike

 

[Brad Duncan]

I think a buyer of a custom should be able to look at it and look at a production and see a grave amount of difference in the quality.If you look at your custom and look at a CRKT,or any other production knife and cannot see a better product then you should question your purchase.With a custom you are not only paying for the knife+ Quality.You are paying for personal service.When you have a question you can call the individual instead of getting a secratary ,and getting transfered to someone who may or maynot care.Custom makers should make the best knife they can within there limits.All of you that buy from them or me should hold us to the quality that one should expect.

And I do mean Hold us to it.
Brad

http://www.duncanknives.com

 

[Samurai6]

I concur with Brad. I don't necessarily expect perfection from a hand made knife, but I do expect craftsmanship in line with the cost. When you can buy a really well made production knife these days for $150, a hand made knife costing $400 better be very well made. Not to mention the fact that there are some makers out there whose work borders on perfection. Everybody else has to compete with them in terms of value.

 

[SDouglas]

When you finish a knife look it over and ask yourself this one question.
"Would I like my entire body of work judged based on this one Knife?"

For better or worse a customer may only have that one knife to judge your work by.

I was at the SECKS last weekend and I did look very hard at Design, Fit and Finish on each knife and evaluated the price based on what I saw.

One maker had a pile of forged knives for $30 to $35 each. The finish on them was not particularly pretty but they were excellent values.

Other makers had uneven grinds and/or blunt points on $200+ dollar knives that totally turned me off.

 

[memnoch]

i have 2 knives from reese weiland. one is the conversion of my commander into a frame lock, the other is a beat up wasp that i got on bladeforums.

I have to say when i pay about 400 for a knife i expect perfection. I recieved it.

the conversion to a frame lock for the commander was great. the lockup is tight, strong and smooth. reese reground the blade for me so i have a conventional double grind on it, instead of the chisel edge that it normaly comes with.

the wasp, well, the only flaw is that its a heavy in the hand MF. on the other hand, a knife that has been beaten on with an action that is better than a new sebenza and an edge that still shaves is VERY impressive to me.

I do demand prefection from a knife maker. If I pay the equivalent of a glock for a knife I want the same level of quality.

I am paying for the workmanship, attention to detail and craftsmanship in the knives. I would also gladly pay for the innovation involved. I paid quite a bit for my JSP v-gar. I believe it was worth it. its the innovation that really costs, but its a price that was well worth it.

 

[Architect]

Peter, I think that a number of responses above more or less get at my point.

The context within which "perfection" is measured is really what the handmade maker needs to be aware of. Some individuals are quite sucessful making very messy (full of "character") blades. Fred Perrin being my favorite example.

I know that a Perrin blade is going to be scratched and pitted, wild, inconsistent handle finishing, handle pins that look like they were hit with a sledge hammer and free-form kydex sheath. But I love them, and that I what I was expecting.

If I am going to buy a knife from Duncan, Chew or Davidson, I am expecting the smoothest, best functioning machine money can buy. Perfection of the mechanisms and technique is what they sell and what I am expecting. If they can't make a $450 knife much, much better than TiNives can make a knife that I can pick up on Ebay for $150, then they are in the wrong business.

Each individual knifemaker should be focusing on what their goals are and what their customers can expect. If you prefer to leave your character marks in the blade, let people know, and those customers that have an affinity for your philosophy and approach will be drawn to your pieces. Best of fortunes to you.

 

[LAG3]

Yukon Cornelius: "This fog is as thick as peanut butter."

Hermie the Elf: "I think you mean pea soup."

Yukon: "You eat what you like and I'll eat what I like!"

To illustrate my point, I wouldn't pay $10 for any of that primitive stuff, but I know lots of people pay big bucks for it. I like the few knives that I have. If I didn't like them, I wouldn't have them, and they wouldn't be worth what I paid for them. It's subjective, therefore, we will never all agree. The closest I've seen to perfection is the Sebenza (the white coffee mug from Kmart, man I love that!), however that is exactly what you get. For me it's all in the action/lock-up, etc. The "walk and talk" as we used to say. Just my two cents (and an attempt to lighten this deep discussion up a little bit ).

Leo Gilbert