Are Steel Innovations Overrated?

I guess my concern about over reaction to steel improvements stems from the fact that I collect and use custom knives. Knives that cost that much should be well designed and valuable to the user whether they have the latest steel or not. This only makes sense because any steel will be the "latest" for a fixed period of time, and lately that time period has been pretty short.
 
Are you worried that your knives won't hold their value?
Or are you reluctant to buy a nice knife because you might wish that you'd waited for a newer steel?
 
Johnniet, I think that both concerns should matter to knife collectors and users. Who wants to shell out $400 - $700 and maybe wait a year for a knife only to see a new and improved version being sold by an internet purveyor within two months of receiving your knife? I guess that for collectors, knives made of a particular steel will eventually go up in value because that "archaic" stainless like 154CM/ATS-34 will prove that it is vintage. I guess it would be kind of like of flat head Harleys being worth more than more technologically advanced later models.

Realistically, the typical collector cannot buy a new Sebenza/Ralph EDC/Carson Model 4 etc. every time there is a steel change. That is why I strongly suggest that owners of fine knives remember that their knives are still quality pieces even if they aren't the latest thing down the pike.
 
Off the top of my head (or maybe out of my ...):
Another thing that might help is for makers to keep customers aware of which new steels the maker is trying. If you have to wait a year for a knife, and meanwhile S30V comes on the market, then you should be able to switch your order to S30V--if the maker ever plans to use S30V at all.

I don't know which custom makers go by this policy but it may be important for times like these.
 
The newer steels and alloys might be better,(probably are bettr), providing that the edge geometry, and heat treat are optimum, but whether one slices 90 times through 1 inch hemp rope or 60 is not the issue.

When the same style knife with a better steel is available, I'll benefit from the better steel, when the blade with the less stellar performance, either catastrophically fails or becomes lost.

One last point, the interest in the new steel can be satisfied by buying another knife that's not in my collection to check out the new supersteel's properties.
 
I would think unless your knife is already made you should be able to switch the blade steel easily. And in the case of a folder I would also think a custom maker could even make a new blade for an old knife. Alot of good points in this thread about new steel and I must admit I have gotten cought up in new steel hype myself. Isn't that what makes being a knife nut fun? :)
With that my favorite steel is D2. It isn't the best steel ever for everything, but I know it well. How it performs and sharpens and I like it.
 
If the same knife is offered in multiple steels, I'd go with the less expensive option for a user. It's the same design, same quality of manufacture. No one except for Cliff Stamp should have to worry about one steel being more failure prone than another. Anyone watch the CS proof video depicting their AUS 8 knives? Heck, somebody broke an INFI bladed Busse. I don't see any benefit of going to a smaller sharpening angle, as I can get a blade shaving at 15, 20, 25 degrees. A 154CM blade will take a lick on a crock stick just as well as a super steel, and that's all you should need for maintenance. When it reaches the point that you need to sit down and actually sharpen your knife, that's when that 62 rc is gonna rear it's head.
 
Overrated would be a bit of an understatement. The "steel mania" that has overtaken the knife industry over the past several years is more related to fashion and marketing than to knives. On the plus side, though, it has helped fuel increased interest in knives and has helped the industry grow. That's a winner for everybody. When the industry grows there are more consumers, more manufacturers and more products and that means more options and more value. So "steel mania" isn't necessarily a bad thing. Anytime folks work at improving a product everybody is a winner even if the improvements are small.

From a personal perspective, though, you should understand that the differences between most good cutlery steels are subtle at best and always fairly minor in terms of the functionality and use of a knife. As an example, we got a return here just yesterday from a customer who was upset that the knife he received was made from ATS-34 instead of 154CM. The only meaningful difference between the two steels is the country of origin. The minor differences in the composition of the steels is meaningless and the performance difference is roughly zero. So "steel mania" can be carried to extremes.

Lastly, all steels are a compromise. I see people above saying this is better than that which is again better than another. That's just not true, unless you choose to judge by only a single parameter. Everytime you improve one characteristic of a steel you generally cause another one to be degraded so it makes little sense to me to rate one steel against another without stating which parameter is being discussed. But it happens all the time.

So, it all gets down to fashion as I said in the first place, I guess. The newer the steel, the better it is, right? Take care.
 
Originally posted by tom mayo
...S30V has just raised the bar a LOT of notches for knife steel....
Click to expand...

I agree that S30V is a incredible steel. If I have my choice of blade steel in a hand made $400 knife, it is going to be S30V, no question.

But, setting aside corrosion resistance just for the sake of conversation, I wonder if the edge holding and toughness are that much better than say ultimately heat treated 52100?

Is 3V really that much tougher than wiz-bang heat treated 5160?

I don't really know the answer to these questions.
I think the new wonder steels are the best over all, but on the individual issues of edge holding, and toughness, there probably is a low alloy steel that will come close in each category. But only the new steels give such high performance across the board.

I wish a person didn't have to buy a big ugly ol' Busse in order to see what INFI is like. Sounds a lot like 3V though.
 
Since S30V seems to have turned all the other steels into velvet Elvises :), I have a question for anyone who has actually used it. My biggest issue with S60V and S90V is that I find that it's difficult to get either to take a screaming-sharp edge. My high-$ customs made from these steels just won't get nearly as sharp as cheapie zytel folders that use 8A.

The questions I have here are:

1. Am I in the minority in thinking that S60V and S90V only grudgingly take a sharp edge?

2. Does S30V suffer from the same problem?

Joe
 
Originally posted by hardheart
I don't see any benefit of going to a smaller sharpening angle, as I can get a blade shaving at 15, 20, 25 degrees.
Click to expand...

Hardheart: Am I understanding correctly that you believe if a blade can shave at 15, 20, or 25 degrees, it will perform as well in a variety of materials at 15 degrees as it does at 25? I'd suggest you actually go test this out ... it'd be ideal to get two identical inexpensive knives, one at 25 degrees and the other at 15, and cut a variety of materials to see the difference. I think you'll find the difference in performance to be substantial. There's a good reason why many of the people who value performance are driving their edge angles as low as they can.

Joe
 
20 degrees is my middle ground when I sharpen. Something I plan on using hard gets something a little thicker, a little nicer blade that isn't going to possibly be ruined or lost will get a slightly finer edge. Either way, if I overlook a staple in a carboard box, have to strip some stainless wire, need to wiggle the tip of my blade between some bits of steel to cut the cable tie holding them together, or scrape :eek: anything off of a metal surface-I will then have another opportunity to adjust the angle no matter what it is.
 
Hi Joe,

S30V and 3v polish up to a scary-sharp edge relatively easily. Not as easy as 1095, but they sharpen a lot nicer than S90V. I would equate S30V to Benchmade's M-2 in terms of sharpening.
 
Joe,
My one 420V blade takes a great edge, probably better than any other steel I've used, but BG-42 and 154CM seem to take really fine edges, too. 420V is much harder for me to reprofile, though.
No experience with 440V...
Ask me about S30V (in your namesake:D) in a few months!

Steve, that doesn't sound too bad to sharpen. Have you used it enough to get a feel for edgeholding, and what Rc is your knife (knives?) at?
Thanks.
 
hardheart :

I don't see any benefit of going to a smaller sharpening angle, as I can get a blade shaving at 15, 20, 25 degrees.
Click to expand...

Sharpness is only one factor in cutting ability, geometry is another. For a lot of cutting (small depth), edge angle is close to linear with cutting performance so if you half the angle, you double the cutting ability.

Joe, in regards to polishing those steels, the biggest problem is that the hardness is usually far off from optimal in suiting the carbide makeup. When the RC is low, but the carbides high, it is difficult to get a clean edge as the steel will burrs quite readily. For maximum ease of sharpening, the steels want to be very hard. Diamond hones work best for the sharpening as they allow you to use the lightest pressure and still cut the carbides and thus minimize burr formation.

The other big problem is that they are not very durable steels at all, among the most brittle so what you could be seeing is micro-cracking. Thus when you start to sharpen the edge will break away in little bits and you have to go far past the point at which you would normally finish (burr formation I would assume). You have to grind out all the damaged steel before the edge will stay coherent.

Both of these problems can be seen under slight magnification.


-Cliff
 
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