Are the off shore imports really worth it?

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T. Erdelyi

T. Erdelyi

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This is a repost from 2004 and my opinion still holds true and my points are still valid today.

There's a lot of talk about quality of American made traditional style knives, the old timers, Case, Camillus, and the Old Timers(Schrade) :D are apparently not up to par.

They like many American made products can't seem to match the quality of products made 30 and 40 years ago.

I have many examples of the cutlers art from the 20's through the early 50's produced by the above companies, these are production manufactured hand crafted examples of the finest American made products of their time.

Try to find the equivalent today and you would be hard pressed to locate many, on the other hand look across the Pacific and you'll see a flood of Asian
repros that supposedly parallel the excellence of the early American mass produced knives.

I was at a gun show yesterday and someone behind a table handed me a Canoe pattern with NS bolsters and Black Lip Scales, a nice looking piece to say the least, he volunteered the knife for inspection and proudly exclaimed, "Find anything wrong with this knife I dare you!"

"$20", he volunteered again,"Great deal".

As I rolled the knife around in my hand, open and closed blades he began to look about nervously at the crowd that started to gather at his table.

"Well" I said," This is a nice knife for $20 and that's about what it's worth, everyone standing behind me moved closer, "What's wrong with it?" he asked.

I reached into my pocket and pulled out a Camillus Equal End Pen with NS Tip Bolsters and Black Horn Scales and proceeded to point out the obvious differences, The back spring on his knife only sat flat when the knife was closed(The back spring was ground with the knife closed to make it look nice), on my knife it sat flat open or closed.

My rivets were finished smooth and flush, no gaps, his were raised, buffed to take off the edge, and were off center a little.

The Scales on his were nice but just didn't fit tight, voids were apparent and the quality of the Black Lip was a little better than what they discard as unacceptable.

Back spring tension on mine was consistent all the way through the arc, his got really hard and stiff at about 2 and 4 o'clock.

His blades rubbed the liners when open or closed, mine nestled closely together, he did point out one thing his had that mine didn't, stainless blades :eek:

As I put my 60 some year old knife back in my pocket, I said"ya got me there buddy, except my knife isn't stained it has a patina, old knives will eventually develop this."

While I walking away from his table I could still hear him trying to keep the crowd interested in his quality Chinese knives, but it was too late they all had seen and heard the differences and decided to buy elsewhere.
 
alot of there knives are nothing but scap metal. now there is some are very good. paul chen to my understanding is hand made. he is in china. and no they are not $20.00 even at dealer cost.
 
I get a lot of good use out of my Rough Riders, and they are producing patterns I can't find anywhere else. It is nice having a user in a pattern I like, that I'm not afraid to bang up a bit. The edge holding and fit and finish are all fine for what they are.
 
I have introduced the joy of slip joints to a great many people using Rough Rider knives. My first was a stockman that I bought 6 years ago. Have used it almost every day for cutting 9/10 oz sheath leather and it still cuts like a razor and is in pretty much the same condition as the day I got it.

Regards

Robin
 
I think it depends on 'the specific manufacturer'. For instance I have a Made in the USA/'GEC bent', but I find myself buying AG Russell made knives every few weeks. Very well made, great fit and finish.

My point is that IMO it's not entirely accurate to lump all China made knives in the same pot.
 
Don't think we'll ever be able to answer that one. I do know this. Knives are one of the few areas where we are still able to buy American. As such, I'll gladly pay the higher prices to support American industry and manufacturing capacity.

- Christian
 
markpmc said:
I think it depends on 'the specific manufacturer'. For instance I have a Made in the USA/'GEC bent', but I find myself buying AG Russell made knives every few weeks. Very well made, great fit and finish.

My point is that IMO it's not entirely accurate to lump all China made knives in the same pot.
Click to expand...

Good point made here. The manufacturing standards increase as demand for quality increases. AG has done an outstanding job of bringing us some really well made knives from outside the US.

Let's just keep away from bashing any specific countries here. I'm not intimating that Mark did. Just asking that as the thread continues we keep the forum guidelines in mind.

Thanks
 
My only Rough Rider is better than my couple of Case knives, and was well finished. Perfect? No. But no gaps, no rubbing, springs level open and closed all 3 blades, nice red jigged bone. $10 shipped. If they'd spent more time/effort and it went to $20 it'd be an incredible knife. And i've handled plenty of old US and European knives from the "hayday" that were nothing special in f&f, walk, talk, etc.
 
You are always going to find examples of poorly or under-finished knives from all manufacturers regardless of country of origin. The regular grade knives of Case and others made in the USA are just that. To the casual user and worker the knife is a tool and not much attention is paid to the fit and finish etc. they are good to great quality tools.

I received an AGR curved regular jack last week and the knife is near perfect in all ways, and all of the last five different knives that I have purchased from him were very excellent.

It's quality control that makes the difference and ensuring that the production specifications are adhered to. I still buy USA made knives when I can get similar quality, price not withstanding.
 
kamagong said:
Don't think we'll ever be able to answer that one. I do know this. Knives are one of the few areas where we are still able to buy American. As such, I'll gladly pay the higher prices to support American industry and manufacturing capacity.

- Christian
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Me too. Just personal preference.
 
In general I think a comparison of knives US made 75 years ago and currently produced from anywhere in the world is a bit like comparing apples to oranges for many reasons, primarily economic. When it comes to buy American versus import I whole heartedly support that side of this. But know this, you are supporting American made and not necessarily getting higher quality. RR for example has filled a void nicely for lower income working folk who need a good working knife but may not be able to afford a $50 plus Case. The $10-15 RR is basically equal to the $50 or more Case by just about any measure. And far better than the $5 truck stop knife which is a total waste of $5.

As for materials some of these Asian makers are using just as high of quality materials as the US versions. There is nothing wrong with 440A, or their version of it, a look through the history of custom knives will find some of the most famous custom makers of all time have used that one.

We cannot make the old is better argument always either. CAS / Hanwei, who collaborates with above noted sword maker Paul Chen, also collaborates with highly regarded knife maker Ron Lake. You can be sure if Ron Lake puts his name on something it will be top shelf. And in the production end of things they are, rivaling pretty much anything ever mass produced by anyone at any period of time, foreign or domestic.

I assume Europe and custom makers were not intended to be included in this discussion as that would open up many more comparisons.
 
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Ive seen some pretty impressive constructions from Asian manufacturers. The big question is materials. A nicely made knife is still not very good if the materials are sub-par. My main concern with the Asian knives is the heat treat of the 440 A...if that is what it really is. You cant be sure.
 
I was very surprised to see the quality knives coming out of China. I haven't seen an AG Russell except for the US made scout knife I bought for my little brother several years ago, so I can't comment on the Chinese made ones, but I've heard only praise for them. I have a knee jerk aversion to Chinese made knives, because I know I can get higher quality, usually, from the US. German made knives used to be top of the line, and Japanese knives used to be bottom of the barrel. There were bad ones from Germany, and good ones from Japan too (Sabre anyone?). I have been slowly changing my thinking in regards to Chinese made knives, until I read an advertisement for a particular pattern I was looking at, as the blade had 400 series stainless. Not 440, not 420, but 400! Maybe they beat on a mish mosh of rolled tin foil, slapped some handles on it, and called it a day. A Friday afternoon factory knife to be sure!

Granted, that was the Taylor factory. A certain company based out of Colorado, and AG, ride herd on their manufacturers, and the manufacturers in turn do a great job.

I usually will not lay aside money for a Chinese made knife however, when I can spend it on a Buck, Case Bose, Great Eastern, Queen, Canal Street etc.
 
kamagong said:
Don't think we'll ever be able to answer that one. I do know this. Knives are one of the few areas where we are still able to buy American. As such, I'll gladly pay the higher prices to support American industry and manufacturing capacity.

- Christian
Click to expand...

I feel the same way.
 
kamagong said:
Don't think we'll ever be able to answer that one. I do know this. Knives are one of the few areas where we are still able to buy American. As such, I'll gladly pay the higher prices to support American industry and manufacturing capacity.

- Christian
Click to expand...

I agree as well. Knives are more important to me than some of the other things I purchase that could be made anywhere. I will stick to US or European manufacture for my knives. Although I do own a number of Japanese pieces but those are mostly over 300 years old!:D
 
They are for me. I like trying different knives, and I'm not a stickler for much ther than easy to handle and cuts what I want to cut.
 
I'm pretty sure this whole topic is verboten, but I'll chime in here.

The quality of a knife is in the material and the manufacturing; the price is set by what the market will support, and is often based on intangibles like brand name, country of origin, etc. There's no reason you can't find a top-quality knife made with excellent materials coming out of China or any other country. The reason there are higher volumes of lower quality knives coming from certain parts of the world begins with an economy built around high-volume manufacturing supported by low-cost labor and driven by price-motivated consumer demand. Even if materials were not part of the equation, minimum wage laws and a higher cost of living in the U.S. prevent cutlers from competing on material and price alone. So the knifemakers that survive are those that can differentiate themselves from the rest of the market on workmanship and intangibles. Sometimes setting a higher MSRP is enough to establish a brand as "premium," though there are usually other factors involved. These intangibles are why old brands (Hen & Rooster, Hammer Brand, etc.) are bought by other cutlers, to lend legitimacy and prestige to their products.
 
"Are the off shore imports really worth it?"

All depends on what you're looking for.

One thing to keep in mind, we all are here on this forum because we're knife nuts. We're the obsessed. We take our love for the object we worship to a much higher level than the regular joe can understand. To many, we're the afflicted. But we're also the 1% of society that is like that. The vast bulk of the unwashed masses who take up a knife, just want to cut something. Their dinner, a piece of twine, open a box. For them, it does not really matter what kind of knife they used, because they don't care. They reeally don't. All they want is a cutting tool that does not cost a lot. Like a .99 cent screw driver from the dollar store. The .99 cent screw driver will put a Christmas gizmo together or put a screw into a little something that you brought home from the store, some assembly required. Will it be good enough for a professional auto mechanic using it daily? No. But there's a difference between the pro and the homebody. In tools as well as knives.

We have to be careful of bashing things because they come from someplace else. When I was a kid, "made in Japan" was a logo to be laughed at. But who was the joke really on? My last couple of trucks have been Toyota's, and they have given me much better service than the last American truck that after 6 months of use was towed into the dealers on a weekly basis. And I saw the Japanese motorcycle industry take over the entire world in one decade. I had the motorcycle bug before I ever got a drivers license. As a teenager, I used to hang around the local cycle shop, learning what I could from the older guys who worked there. This was the age that Triumph, B.S.A., Norton, ruled the tracks, and Harley-Davidson was straining to keep in the game. One day, a young guy on a little black motorcycle the size of a Moped pulls up and goes in to get a can of oil. We're all looking at his bike, wondering who made such a tiny motorcycle, and admiring how well all the metal parts fit together. He comes out and someone asks him who is Honda and where it's from. He says "Japan." and everyone laughs. The joke was on us. Inside of one decade, that dealer, A B.S.A. dealer went under, and that brand as well as the rest of the British motorcycle industry bit the dust. Honda became the biggest motorcycle maker in the world, with Yamaha as number 2. Harley-Davidson started their long decent into bankruptcy, to be bled out by AMF and Honda went on to make cars, SUV's, lawn mowers, outboard motors, and even airplane engines. If I knew then what I now now, I'd have went out and bought all the stock in Honda that my lawn cutting money could get me.

Same with knives. There are some very good knives coming out of a lot of overseas countries that will cut what you need to cut. It all depends on the mission parameters of what you need. A good example is Karen's sites, Diane. Now Diis a very nice person, but she nor her fella Roy know jck about knives, and they don't care. So being one of the families cooks, I often get pressed into service helping out Di when we're eating over there. A while back, Di had made a nice pork roast for dinner. She asked me to slice it up to serve. Looking through Di's kitchen drawer is like a journey to the used cutlery dump from a discount box store. I took what looked like an old boning knife, and went out front and sharpened it up on the cement front step. I got it pretty sharp, and then used the cut down diamond hone I keep in my wallet to smooth it out some. It got very sharp, and carved the pork roast very well. I know Di is a bit afraid of very sharp knives, so it got wrapped in a paper towel, and put off to the side in the drawer. That became my knife when visiting. I wanted to gift Di some good Victorinox knives, but she didn't want them. Just not on her radar.

Anyways, that knife is still there, off to the side, and used by me when I'm the visiting chef. It works at it's intended mission well. I've used it several times, and sharpened it nice more. The blade is unmarked but for the word 'China' and the wood handles are warped from the dishwasher. But for what it was intended for, it works. How hard is a pork roast or avacado's and tomatoes for a salad? It seems the generic 420 that it's made from is 'good enough' for most non knife people. And thats most people who are just trying to make dinner. Or open a UPS box. My friend Dan is a good example. He carries a cheap made in China SAK knock off. I know he has a real SAK, because I gave him one years ago. But he loves the all metal SAK pioneer look alike because doesn't have to care about it. He scrapes rust, wire, rips open boxes of parts, whatever. For him, a non knife nut, it works. Is it a cheap junky knife? Heck yes. But it works like a ugly M3 grease gun compared to a well machined Thompson.

And then there's the Rough Riders. I have never had one, but my friend Chet has. He uses the living heck out them, and they seem to do well. He gets to try out lots of different knife patterns with very little outlay of cash. The knives work, and they sharpen up well very easy.

It's all in what you want.

Carl.
 
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