Are the off shore imports really worth it?

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This is a repost from 2004....

...I was at a gun show yesterday and someone behind a table handed me a Canoe pattern with NS bolsters and Black Lip Scales, a nice looking piece to say the least, he volunteered the knife for inspection and proudly exclaimed, "Find anything wrong with this knife I dare you!"

I'm curious why you reposted your prior thread, or rather, do you have a recent story similar to the above, lo these 9 years later?

My (admittedly neo-) observation is that one constant over the past decade is that both poor and stellar examples of pocket knives (and relative value for the money) can be found among both domestic and imported knives.

~ P.
 
It's all in what you want.

Agreed. The majority of people I know would balk at spending $20 on a knife, but think nothing of spending a couple hundred every two years or so on a new smart phone. Knives aren't a top priority for most these days.

- Christian
 
This is not a "new" topic, but one that is hundreds of years old. About 150 years ago it was US knives that sucked and the British and German ones that were good.

You can't make generalizations about any country of origin or even a single company. Some knives are worth it, others not. Take CAS-Hanwei for example since they are the best known quality maker from China selling under their own logo. Their top of the line Lake folder ($185 internet price) is equal to any production knife, Case Bose and Moki included. However, their next tier, Rock Creek Sitka folder ($120) looks nice in pictures, but is not worth the price when you see it in hand. Poor fit/finish, poor etch/stamped design, poor ergonomics. Finally, their bottom line, Rock Creek Padre ($35) is almost worth the price...if it wasn't for the funky leather handles. I am sure they are cool somewhere, just not here. Same company, three different tiers of quality just like like Case, Queen and GEC. There is not a real difference between US, China, Taiwan, Germany, look for the "real difference" with the knife in hand using your eyes, hands and experience using the blade.
 
I am not sure how I eased into buying foreign, but somewhere along way, I became alright with doing so. I am and was raised in military town USA (San Antonio, TX) where at one time we had SIX military bases in our city, and a huge retirement community of retired military.

In the 60s, many would not carry German made knives due to their experiences 15 or so years earlier. Still too recent. So no Boker, Puma, Eye, or anything like that. Ditto the same with Japanese made anything. And while Case, Buck, Schrade, etc., were everywhere, that represented the total offerings around here. It was somewhere in the early 70s when I received my first Boker as a gift from my Dad. That was his signal that it was OK.

Somewhere in the early 80s I bought myself a Gerber Silver knight, marked as made in Seki Japan. I was careful to make sure I didn't lend that to the wrong person. It was a great knife, and was as well made as my benchmark for all things folding, Case. I still have it, and even with 100,000 on it, the knife still locks up great with no wobble. That knife was followed by a Kershaw Whiskey Gap. Ditto on the performance. So I started carrying foreign made, offshore made products from countries we had gone to war with (!!!) 40 years ago.

Somewhere along the way (late 70s or so) of my blue collar life as a carpenter/contractor, the landscape started to change in tool offerings. There was a new company called "Makita", followed by "Hitachi" and there were a couple of others, too. They weren't much cheaper than their American counterparts, but they were much better made for the most part. Still, they were banned from most job sites due to their country of origin. That was almost 40 years ago...

But the offshore made tools showed up with useful features that weren't on American made tools. American tools were using the same designs and were using the same tooling that they had used for 20 years with little or no innovation. The new tools used better materials and were finished better than Porter Cable, Rockwell, etc. American tool manufacturers responded by thinking that the only difference between their tools and the offshore offerings was the price. So, they cheapened the quality of the tools they made to hold the line on their pricing. Polished aluminum cases on drills and saws became painted cast metal of some sort. Good fit and finish disappeared. They were still good tools but now they were too much money for what you got. All of us blue collar guys that make living with their tools want something good out of the box that will last. All of us would pay more if we got more, but we wouldn't pay more to get the same product that was lesser or equal quality. We believed in American workers, American business, and figured that once they got tired of getting their butts kicked by foreigners, they would start turning out superior products and we would all come home.

Their response was not what was expected. Instead, they tossed QC out the window, and like some knife manufacturers today, you do the QC for them, and are thrilled when you get a "good one". (You know, the same knives we got in the 70s all day long from Case and Buck.) As their tool quality became questionable and their prices high, they pushed us away from their products. And nothing will tick you off more as when money comes out of your pocket when you buy a tool and it fails you. In my case as a self employed, that simply means not only did that tool fail, but it cost me money, time and effort to take up all the slack it caused when it failed. Like most of me and mine, I will gladly pay more to get more because quality and reliability out of the box is the big factor for me.

Manufacturers did another end run. Since they saw that they had bridged the gap of "redneck America" and were selling offshore made tools of all types at our supply houses, they moved manufacturing off shore. They were sneaky at first, and that caused a ruckus when they were found out. So they dropped the pretense and said that their foreign line was to compete with the foreign invaders and they would still manufacture the main tool lines of their professional grade tools in the USA. Well, that went away too, and soon there were almost no tools made in the USA as it was simply too profitable to make them overseas and ship them over.

Sadly, they screwed that up, too. American bean counters put more pressure on their offshore counterparts to bring in the same products at a cheaper price point. They have to answer to their stockholders after all, and us idiots that were buying their tools to literally make a living with were a second or third consideration. So now we have few (if any) tools that aren't boutique quality (think GEC, et. al) made in the USA. After meeting tool rep after tool rep, the response is always the same. It was our fault as consumers that made the tool manufacturers lessen their quality and then move overseas. Too much pressure on pricing from us, and pressure from stockholders for profits on the other side. Now just about all power tools and hand tools are made offshore.

Any of this sound familiar?

Anyway, I had never bought a knife from China until I started haunting this forum. I had no idea there was such a thing as a high quality Chinese made knife. So about 4 years ago, I jumped in with a medium priced locker that was highly recommended here in the General Discussion area. It is a great knife and although I have beat the snot out of it, it is still a favorite. About that time I received a Remington branded knife that was made offshore. I would carry it, but decided it would make a great knife for my tool bags. Over a period of a few months, it went into my pocket as a sturdy knife with good ergos and a great steel for a folder.

Still uncomfortable with this whole arrangement (while being a complete hypocrite in using all foreign made tools all day long) I held off on buying any Chinese made knives. I decided to jump in when I couldn't look at AGR's wharncliffe folder any longer. What a knife! Then I bought the same case with the zulu spear in it. Same excellent quality, and very resonably priced. Good working knives with good steel, a few notches above the usual 8CrMo whatever.

Then I got his Barlow. Excellent knife. And when purchasing a knife for my nephew I decided to try a RR for myself just before Christmas. I was surprised not only at the quality of build but at the quality of components. The blade steel is good, the fit and finish are great. I would have been really pleased if I had bought a domestic knife and the quality was this good.

So now I guess I am in the soup. I will still buy patterns I like that have something I need and pay the cost of a USA made knife. I just bought a Queen 4" stockman, but it had rounded bolsters (talk about pocket friendly) and D2 steel. Tough to beat that. But for an unusual pattern, an old pattern out of manufacture, gifts, every day carries, or for work you don't want to exposed an old favorite to, I will probably be looking more and more to the offshore offerings.

Sorry to be so long winded, but this whole issue is strangely confusing and troubling to me just like it was when I bought my first Makita tool. As silly as it sounds, I felt like I was doing something wrong. Since this topic comes up one way or another in one form or another, I think you guys know what I am talking about.

Robert
 
Oh what a can of worms I opened here, as long as we stay within the guidelines I won't have to lock this down.

I'm not lookin's to bash, I'm lookin' for comparisons. A lot of older previously discontinued patterns are bein' made overseas allowin' people to get exposure to patterns that if available would be cost prohibitive in some cases.

I've seen some nice examples of our traditional patterns reproduced in other countries and like was mentioned above, as long as the equipment is of reasonable quality, the employees are properly trained, the materials of modest quality and the management able to monitor and maintain a modicum of quality control they will compete for portion of the American market.

Now with the politics a side, considerin' the current quality of knife you get here for the same dollar amount versus the quality of knife you can get from a better maintained equipment and a better trained work force, are the offshore imports worth it?

Personally I think if ya deal with a manufacturer that's established with the employees to back it than yes it is, because it will afford/expose more people to knives whose costs are rapidly risin' outta the reach of the workin' man.

I do agree that the economy has forced more people with our habits to look elsewhere to continue enjoyin'our hobby.

I think a lot of younger enthusiasts would miss out on a large portion of this hobby, (the EDC/user aspect of the hobby.)

The main reason I brought up this old thread was because I thought the question was a valid question today more so than before considerin's the US manufacturers that have closed their doors since then. My way of lookin's this has changed over the years as I've seen improvement in the overseas knives bein' made from companies that are lookin's compete for our money.

The other reason I resurrected this old thread was 'cause I was to lazy to write this all over when I thought I had written it pretty well before. ;)
 
Out of the new (ie not old) traditional knives I've had recently, the best I've had in terms of build and quality, have been US made knives, and they cost maybe twice here what they do in the States. Out of two Stockman patterns I received as Xmas presents, I actually prefer the RR Sowbelly Stockman Andi sent me to the Boker Tree Brand I received, in terms of everything but the steel.
 
Some really thoughtful and interesting posts here, folks. I was hoping I'd get the chance to warn or infract some members on this thread .... but you've outwitted me so far. ;)

Let's just keep it to the knives and continue to leave the politics out of the discussion.

Thanks!
 
I've got a "ridiculous" number of knives of every shape, size, and description ... more than I could ever use in two or three lifetimes. I'm very fortunate to have the resources to feed my Knifenut inclinations. If an inexpensive traditional folder helps someone else get a "lesser" trad knife (rather than no knife at all) .... well, I'm all for that. If a novice KnifeNut gets the "bug" they will move onto the better knives (steels, F&F, etc.). I believe that any "less expensive" trad folder is better than no trad folder. RR and other makers are keeping these pattern alive in a way that US makers cannot do at the present. I'm glad that there is a large "market" for these trads or they would't be made anywhere - especially Asia.
 
Robert's post rings true for me at least.:thumbup:

I like variety in everything, including knives surprise surprise! I hope as many countries as possible continue to make their knives-lets face it interest in knives is a very small niche indeed and we knife collectors are, shall we say, marginal. I've got good knives from many countries, ditto poor ones. Where I may take issue is the automatic assumption that ALL old knives were superbly made and inherently better than contemporary ones. Not so, very much not so. In the wonderful Old Knives thread we rightly are impressed by the diversity of patterns&makers, we revere them. But there were plenty of stinkers, rough quality and shoddy knives knocking about too, way back then. Most knives, irrespective of when they are made, often face an abusive and short life, expendable items. Nearly everybody on this forum treats their knives with respect, within reason, we value them as objects. The old ones which endure we are in awe of (rightly). Cheap knives domestic or imported will always face a tough life, in that respect they are worth it, where they originate is of no consequence. For a knife enthusiast the question should always be: does it give me pleasure to carry and use it?

I've got a GEC Ebony 66 on the desk next to me. It's extremely well-made has no 'issues' I know that if there is still a world in a hundred years it will be around as an aged nice item. It cost more than the man in the street would ever want to spend on a knife (but small beer to a custom collector). Other side of the room is a type of knife unmentionable on this forum... :D:D:eek: it too is black, I like this and it's an inexpensive very well made Asian knife, this also could still be around in a century. Answer to the question are they worth it? Yes if they please you and will endure.

Thanks, Will
 
Out of the new (ie not old) traditional knives I've had recently, the best I've had in terms of build and quality, have been US made knives, and they cost maybe twice here what they do in the States. Out of two Stockman patterns I received as Xmas presents, I actually prefer the RR Sowbelly Stockman Andi sent me to the Boker Tree Brand I received, in terms of everything but the steel.

So, you like all the off-shore imports you've bought then. ;)

Regarding knives like RR, I do enjoy them, even as I go deeper down the GEC-hole. I'm a sucker for striking covers, and RR has several variations, such as their gunstock jigged bone, that are truly unique.
 
Buy American like a great eastern. I would rather give a $100 for a good knife $1 for a junk rough rider.Im a proud supporter of US jobs.
 
Here's a pic of a knife made in Pakistan 20 years ago, it's a beast of a knife and well made, I used it at work for about 10 years as a mechanic/electrician and I feel lost without it when doin'electrical work.


0809210008.jpg


Now until recently there has been no other knife made anywhere that had the level in it so the only place to get this was from Guttmann Cutlery back then, now a forum member has pointed me towards a model made by DOG that seems to fit the bill but I can almost guarantee that even the SOG model's made overseas.

What is one to do when no one in the US makes a knife here that was a typical pattern in the day?

I haven't tried any R.R.s but have handled a few, I think they compare very well to any of Case's midline production knives.
 
Not to start another RR thread but there has been quite a bit said in this one about the steel. A friend gifted me an RR Congress a couple of years ago and asked me to test it out at the farm. He knew I would punish it and I did. I documented everything I did to it for a week. Keep in mind I do not normally treat knives this way and will always reach for the right tool if available. While this review does not address the metallurgical qualities of the steel it does address its toughness. For those interested it is here:


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-amp-Related-Slipjoints?p=9118409#post9118409
 
The steel often seems to send some people haring off to (preconceived?) conclusions...it's junk, it's 44 this 44 that 420, not heat treated bla..

I've been totally pleased with the steel on my RR knives a plenty, same with ONE Chinese Schrade Old Timer lockback in Buffalo Horn (use it a lot, super build quality and finish). They cut for a satisfying time and get keen again. As ptradeco's link above bears out (nor is this an isolated case)
 
The Chinese brands today are rapidly approaching where the Japanese brands were during the early 1980s. I suspect that by the end of the decade, we will consider them to be of comparable quality with the best of the Seki made knives. I would love to see a strong resurgence in American made factory knives (and all other goods), but that would take a significant investment in capital which we seem unable and unable to do. It is a shame too; since there is a lot to be said for putting quality over price, but the market seems to overwhelming favor the cheapest possible solutions.

n2s
 
Another question, is a poorly ground blade made in the US, (as has been seen on some Case knives) better or worse than a well ground blade in Pakistan?

Typically, if the person makin' the knife takes the time for accurate even getting lines they're probably usin' reasonable steels with decent heat treats.
 
So, you like all the off-shore imports you've bought then. ;)

:D

Regarding knives like RR, I do enjoy them, even as I go deeper down the GEC-hole. I'm a sucker for striking covers, and RR has several variations, such as their gunstock jigged bone, that are truly unique.

I really like the look of your tea-stained Barlow :)
 
I've ate my words and a whole lotta crow bashing RR and other china made products. The feed stores have started carrying RR's over case bc they actually sell. They said that more guys are willing to buy a 10$ knife over a 50$. All of this bc he's selling to a younger customer base. Plus an extra 40$ spent on a knife could be used buying more important things like wire,oil,posts,feed,etc. They gave me a RR stockman for Christmas and it has held it own on with my case knives. Plus buying a RR is also supporting an American owned company.
 
While I prefer to buy made in Pennsylvania, ie: GEC, Case, Queen (hey, I'm a Pennsylvanian! :D), I have been very impressed with the quality of AG Russell's knives. The Japanese made knives are beautiful and flawless, and my Chinese made curved Wharncliffe jack is fantastic.

As a watch collector, I'm happy to be able to buy an American made product like knives, as US watchmaking began to shrink in the late 1950's though struggled on until the early 70's, pretty much thanks to Bulova. Quartz killed it off completely, and now the historically best US (and some would have argued the world at the time) watchmaker, Hamilton, is a Swiss made brand. Yes there are a couple American watchmakers but they are incredibly expensive boutique brands like RGM.

The subject of Chinese made watches comes up quite a bit at another forum I frequent, and like knives it all depends on the manufacturer. There are superlative Chinese watches like Beijing, and not so good ones like Alpha. People who are watch nuts seek out the good stuff, just like the knife enthusiasts here do the same with Chinese made knives.
 
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