Are there too many good knife makers?

erik markman said:
Is there a difference in fulltime and parttime knifemakers?
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i think so,

hobby makers can take as long as they like to make a knife , asking how much they like .

full time makers ( and i don't mean the happy few with 3 years order books, and sell everything they make before the steel is cold )
need to sell knifes, so they market theme with a competitive price and need to make production.
 
I think maybe this starts to qualify custom knife making as an art form with mainstream potential. Very few makers will gain notoriety in the knife world as it expands. Makers with vision and business sense and talent will make a living and maybe more. But most will be poor. You know, like artists. :D
With more people making knives, more will be exposed to the work and collect. It elevates the art form. The cream will continue to rise to the top.
Russ
 
Kohai999 said:
I'm not gambling on non-US makers, because to learn about them and see what market position on them is more difficult FOR ME than going with a domestic maker. In addition, if there is a problem(which I have had with two South American makers, one requiring re-machining of the knife, the other handle material shrunk) it is an additional hassle..and really not worth it to me.
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Being a south american I can't agree less, what you said is like saying: I will never meet women again because years ago two women treated me wrong...

I really don't have a problem about the remaining of your post, because as a collector you are free to determine what suits you the best, what IMHO you should not do is to constantly dismiss a whole subcontinent for problem you had with two individuals.

There are forums in other languages most people in USA do not understand, but there are also browsers, Chrome comes to mind, that translates them on the fly with pretty decent results, but you need to have the desire to explore...


Pablo
 
firebolt said:
i think so,

hobby makers can take as long as they like to make a knife , asking how much they like .

full time makers ( and i don't mean the happy few with 3 years order books, and sell everything they make before the steel is cold )
need to sell knifes, so they market theme with a competitive price and need to make production.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't confuse a "Hobby" knifemaker and a "Part-Time" in at least how I interpret the meanings.

A "hobby" maker creates knives for pleasure for own use, gives them away, or may sell a few to friends.
A "part time" maker creates knives for sale as a businesss very similar to a "full-time" maker however has another job or other interests.
I believe "part-time" makers probably create a large % of the custom knives made.

"Full Time" knifemakers make up a very small % of total of custom knifemakers.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I wouldn't confuse a "Hobby" knifemaker and a "Part-Time" in at least how I interpret the meanings.

A "hobby" maker creates knives for pleasure for own use, gives them away, or may sell a few to friends.
A "part time" maker creates knives for sale as a businesss very similar to a "full-time" maker however has another job or other interests.
I believe "part-time" makers probably create a large % of the custom knives made.

"Full Time" knifemakers make up a very small % of total of custom knifemakers.
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I think that's absolutely correct.
 
Kohai999 said:
Yes, of course you are right Marcel, it took off like gangbusters....who ever heard of Moran or Loveless or the ABS or the Knifemakers Guild....obviously, the US lags behind the greatness of the rest of the world.....do you really want to compare, say....Solingen or Sheffield to US custom knifemakers?

Before you get all bent out of shape, I like you, you know that, I like MANY non-American knifemakers, but the globalization of commerce for me stops with knifemaking, and it always has....one of the reasons that I got into it is that American knifemakers were so ahead of the curve in the '80's that it was astounding, and if you look at output, the rest of the world is STILL trying to catch up.

If you don't get the point, than there is no point....and let me finish by stating that there are 5(five) makers listed in K2013 for the Netherlands, none for Scotland, none for Iceland(places I just visited) and roughly 30 for Alaska, one of the United States most remote and inhospitable locales.

Just like the Olympics, USA kicks ass in knifemaking....end of story....no guts, no glory.

Unless it is absolutely required, I'll bow out of this one, as I fear the usual suspects will chime in with the usual kumbaya BS and that will raise my hackles and no good will come of it...I'm completely inflexible on this subject, and leave you all to it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Don't mess with the Kohai!
 
97% of the knives I examine at shows do not meet my design, construction or quality standards Peter so I am not sure what the hell you are talking about.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I wouldn't confuse a "Hobby" knifemaker and a "Part-Time" in at least how I interpret the meanings.

A "hobby" maker creates knives for pleasure for own use, gives them away, or may sell a few to friends.
A "part time" maker creates knives for sale as a businesss very similar to a "full-time" maker however has another job or other interests.
I believe "part-time" makers probably create a large % of the custom knives made.

"Full Time" knifemakers make up a very small % of total of custom knifemakers.
Click to expand...

agreed very much,

but there are a lot of makers witch i would describe as hobby makers,
as the don't need the income from sold knives to make a living ,
the make out off passion, frustration in bought knifes, artistic outings and some are very good in this
and becoming successful enough to start thinking of going part time
 
Nope no sense in any of this hobbyism, part time or full timer. The out comes the same. You gotta let it go, or its on display.

Its all just a way to judge makers..

Company size mean naff all.
Time spent means naff all.
Its all bs.

You make knives or you dont.

Theres just different monopolies is all.

Coping
 
firebolt said:
agreed very much,

but there are a lot of makers witch i would describe as hobby makers,
as the don't need the income from sold knives to make a living ,
the make out off passion, frustration in bought knifes, artistic outings and some are very good in this
and becoming successful enough to start thinking of going part time
Click to expand...

I agree, there's probably more "hobbyist makers" out there than one world think.
Before the internet there really wasn't a substantial venue for them to showcase their work.
 
Interesting...but old and belabored topic.

In 1987 I was sitting in on the Guild Board members meeting. This was in the "Golden Years" of the Art and presentation knife. To include the welcoming of the stainless steel interframe folder. Complete with engraving and gold inlay! Barrett Smythe (most of you probably don't even know the name) were commissioning engraved interframe folders that were being sold at retail prices between $12,000 and $20,000.

The question at the meeting....are there too many makers?

Then as today there is not a excess of makers. Then as today there are more than enough collectors.

Then as today the makers and more importantly the organizations that represent them do not comprehend how to properly market their makers and the knives they make. Please understand I was only a member of the Guild and ABS starting in 1986...so I cannot speak with any degree of certainty prior to that.

Example found in this thread...the ABS does not have an accurate count of its JS/MS makers on its website. Which means this number has not been updated for at least 3 months to possibly 16 months. Why?

Custom knife buying moves in cycles. Someone alluded to the fact that the ABS makers were very hot several years back. So what happened? The cycles of custom knife buying. Today it is tactical folders and the hybrids that have evolved out of them. While the ABS show can barely get people through the door...the Tactical Invitational can charge $100 per attendee...and they end up turning people away...why? Larry Brahms (Blade Art) puts on the USN Gathering in Las Vegas (primarily tactical knives) and the show kills! Why?

The problem is not the amount of collectors. As the more collectors who enter the marketplace eventually more makers will follow. Today the collectors are doing their homework consistently. As such they are requiring more knife for their dollars. Today's collectors understand that being a voting member in the Guild does not mean your knives are head and shoulders among those who are not. In many cases those voting members of the Guild are superior knife makers. However, today's collectors incorporate Voting membership in the Guild as only 1 criteria for their knife purchase.

If we are honest with ourselves we all know there a many ABS MS makers who would have difficulty passing today's JS test...let alone the MS test. While the organization and its makers may want to turn a blind eye to this. Fact is the collectors understand that there are JS makers doing better work than many of the MS makers.

So the answer to "are there too many good knife makers?" The answer is of course no.

There are too many knife makers trying to get $500 for a $375.00 knife.
 
Les Robertson said:
Interesting...but old and belabored topic.

In 1987 I was sitting in on the Guild Board members meeting. This was in the "Golden Years" of the Art and presentation knife. To include the welcoming of the stainless steel interframe folder. Complete with engraving and gold inlay! Barrett Smythe (most of you probably don't even know the name) were commissioning engraved interframe folders that were being sold at retail prices between $12,000 and $20,000.

The question at the meeting....are there too many makers?

Then as today there is not a excess of makers. Then as today there are more than enough collectors.

Then as today the makers and more importantly the organizations that represent them do not comprehend how to properly market their makers and the knives they make. Please understand I was only a member of the Guild and ABS starting in 1986...so I cannot speak with any degree of certainty prior to that.

Example found in this thread...the ABS does not have an accurate count of its JS/MS makers on its website. Which means this number has not been updated for at least 3 months to possibly 16 months. Why?

Custom knife buying moves in cycles. Someone alluded to the fact that the ABS makers were very hot several years back. So what happened? The cycles of custom knife buying. Today it is tactical folders and the hybrids that have evolved out of them. While the ABS show can barely get people through the door...the Tactical Invitational can charge $100 per attendee...and they end up turning people away...why? Larry Brahms (Blade Art) puts on the USN Gathering in Las Vegas (primarily tactical knives) and the show kills! Why?

The problem is not the amount of collectors. As the more collectors who enter the marketplace eventually more makers will follow. Today the collectors are doing their homework consistently. As such they are requiring more knife for their dollars. Today's collectors understand that being a voting member in the Guild does not mean your knives are head and shoulders among those who are not. In many cases those voting members of the Guild are superior knife makers. However, today's collectors incorporate Voting membership in the Guild as only 1 criteria for their knife purchase.

If we are honest with ourselves we all know there a many ABS MS makers who would have difficulty passing today's JS test...let alone the MS test. While the organization and its makers may want to turn a blind eye to this. Fact is the collectors understand that there are JS makers doing better work than many of the MS makers.

So the answer to "are there too many good knife makers?" The answer is of course no.

There are too many knife makers trying to get $500 for a $375.00 knife.
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Yes-This.

I always loved the marketing concept of those Barrett-Smythe knives. They even had B-S etched on the blade! How appropriate!
(And no one involved was Barrett or Smythe, all a complete fabrication!)
 
Les Robertson said:
So the answer to "are there too many good knife makers?" The answer is of course no.

There are too many knife makers trying to get $500 for a $375.00 knife.
Click to expand...

I would say this is solid gold right there, and ADD....not that there are too many makers TRYING to get $500 for a $375.00 knife, but there is way too much collector driven hype that creates a situation (via silent auction) that drives the price up at many shows, and the collector never realizes that they paid too much and will never recoup the $$. This leaves the maker in a complete quandry(often) as to REAL market position.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hey STeven

Hype is primarily for those Dealers and Collectors trying to take advantage of the collectors not doing their homework. As the cycle goes those makers whose knives are getting stupid prices will understand or they won't. That those prices are anomalies of a hypersensitive market. If they chase those prices...they will price themselves out of the market. If they understand this...they won't. A makers in position in the market is what the 80% are paying. Kind of like figure skating at the Olympics...throw out the low and high scores.

Many collectors do get caught up in the hype and over pay for the "education". But business needs those early adopters who are willing to pay the money to be first (or in the case of many collectors...get the "Forum Love"). It is a game of musical chairs...except in this case the last person seated has a knife they will never get their money back out of. Many of the collectors fail to examine the over hyped knives of the past of which excessive premiums were paid for. Which is to say this is not on the makers. It is purely a function of the aftermarket.

I think at this point more collectors understand a makers position in the market than the makers do. Most makers...especially newer ones still rely on their competition (fellow knife makers) to price their knives for them. Probably the reason that more knives stay at the shows....than leave.

If a collector wants to know the real price of one of the "hot" knives. Ask the dealer..."If I wanted to trade this knife back to you in 2 years, would you allow me what I paid for it towards a more expensive knife in trade?"

Their answer will be all you need to know about that knife, that maker and that price....and their position in the market.

The makers position in a particular market and what a knife should actually sell for are actually pretty easy to figure out.
 
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