are these good 'knives'?

[Guyon]

using a low end video its difficult to show edge rippling, chipping and excessive blunting to the point of non-functionality. if the edge is literally squared off and rolled over from hardwoods, it's not "broken" in the sense of being in two peices, but it's broken in the sense that you can't use it anymore. without showing how the edge reacts on a given easily visible media, you won't know just how bad it is from the video footage. if it's heavily chipped, it will snag in the media.

That may be, but in the written report, ol' Noss4 references "edge loss." So is he looking for chips, or is he looking for loss of sharpness? It ain't so clear. http://www.knifetests.com/BussefFFBMtestpage.html

calling him out on the mask and his first year presentation is kinda like calling people out on grammatical mistakes in an argument, it's fishing for easy targets that don't have any relevancy to the core subject in order to undermine a point without ever addressing the point in any way.

Wasn't going for a red herring in my comments. It's never a mistake to show where and how someone started out. With this logic, we shouldn't be able to call first-year Senators on the votes they cast two years ago just because... well... it was their first year.

My point is that ol' Noss4 dug himself a hole in that first thread, and for many folks, myself included, he's still digging himself out. Taking off the silly mask and presenting himself as a person rather than a horror-film character might go a long way toward this end. You can argue all you like that "it's just about the knives." But it isn't. These destruction "tests" have a history and a key agent. They are contextually bound to the person conducting them and to his conduct on these forums. ol' Noss4 has calmed it down some in the BFC posts, but my take on his character has also been affected by private messages I've exchanged with him. With that older Strider thread in mind, I still wonder if, for him, it's really about the knives or if it's about the attention he gets.

I'm not trying to say that the protocol is perfect in any way or that it couldn't be done better - just that they serve a purpose and are worth being in existence. for me the idea of "I don't ever want to see anyone break an expensive tool EVER" is just as ridiculous as using a hockey mask during the destructive tests.

I agree with you on all your points here.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Note the portion highlighted in red. Investigation, reasoning, and calculation imply empirical values for comparison. It most assuredly does not imply subjective evaluations.

I'll ask again: Where is the measurement? The decibel level of his grunts? The number of uncalibrated blows? The number of degrees the silly mask deflects under impact? If it can't be reproduced it isn't science. I don't know what you could call it, but I do know what you can't.

This is probably wandering too far off topic to continue in this forum....

i'm not sure noss has ever put his video's off as science, nor would I call it an exercise in scientific method. and for arguments sake, reasoning does imply some level of subjective evaluation, unless referring solely to mathematical calculations.

Wasn't going for a red herring in my comments. It's never a mistake to show where and how someone started out. With this logic, we shouldn't be able to call first-year Senators on the votes they cast two years ago just because... well... it was their first year.

i would disagree, it would be closer if the senator wore a pink thong over his pant's during press confrences. noss's tests havent changed all that much from the beginning.

I guess it's easier for me to disregard certain types of personality presentations online then it is for others. I only really get frustrated and unable to see clear points of argument when a person boldly claims ignorance to be best, like when a forum member said that a makers description of a knives abilities was the only factor that should ever be taken into consideration for it's abilities. ex) knife A made of a2 at 58rc done by the exact same heat treating protocol and exact same geometry as knife B - if maker A says it will blow up in your hand if you touch it to wood, then by god you better not touch it to wood cause you can sure as the day break expect it to blow up. but knife b's maker says you can pry with his, so you can go ahead and pry with it. metallurgy, physics and science be damned - the word of the maker is better then magic. that argument still infuriates me... total newspeak/doublespeak mentality.

for me, I don't even see noss when I watch the video's, I just see the knife and whats being done to it, so it's hard for me to think of noss's personality as an input important at all. so the idea that his tests are hindered or should be halted as a result of his personalities makes me a bit sad, cause it would be a loss of (for me) valuable visual material.


as far as being off topic goes, the subject was limited in scope, and now it's been expanded of course if a mod see's fit to throw this in another forum, I'd understand. if your a maker and put something out in 1/4", either the steel is unable to be heat treated in a manner to be made thinner for a slicer, the heat treat isn't done in a manner that would make the knife able to withstand use as a cutter at thinner stock thickness, or you intend it to be used for more then just cutting. if it's meant to be used for anything that could be considered "hard use" - from chopping potentially pebble ridden wood to prying up door frames - I wanna know what it takes for it to break. I've broken tips off knives doing small pry jobs (mostly plastic cases on electronics) and almost cut the heck out of my arm and hands, I'm not doing anything heavier then that without knowing what it's gonna do first. and without breaking one first, how would I know?

 

[Lil' Foo]

No... these are not good knives.

They are GREAT knives.






Now... where did I put the mask???
You all certainly like kickin' a dead horse don'tcha.

 

[Guyon]

it's hard for me to think of noss's personality as an input important at all. so the idea that his tests are hindered or should be halted as a result of his personalities makes me a bit sad, cause it would be a loss of (for me) valuable visual material.

I don't think I've ever said the material has no value. (Watch noss4 find a past post to the contrary. ) But I just feel a little silly watching a grown man disguised in a hockey mask beat a knife to death. And the mask is part of the personality. I just keep wondering about his thoughts and motives in terms of the presentation. If someone showed up at any other kind of presentation (except for maybe a horror movie casting) wearing the same get-up, I don't think I would just concentrate on the material. For me, it's a distraction and a detraction. I know this to be true for others as well.

Now... where did I put the mask???
You all certainly like kickin' a dead horse don'tcha.

'


Giddyup!!!

Oh wait... point well taken, Foo.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Dead horse aside... I like the mask deal. I think the vids that Noss does are appropriate for knives built like Busse knives. Meaning that they fill the same niche. (ie. digging, chopping, batoning, prying, cutting, etc...) What do his vids show? They show how much abuse a knife can take. How does this relate to real use?

(1) When I see the FFBM laugh at the 3lb. hammer blows I know full well that I will never break mine batoning into wood using a wooden baton.

(2) When I see Noss stand and bounce on a blade I have no worries about prying with mine.

I think these "tests" are more relevant for knives designed to do things like baton, dig, pry, etc... A lot of people look at how the average HOG uses their knives and think we are abusive. I just see these as fun and, for me, informative.

 

[Jeremy Horton]

the mask is necessary for the test but he should take it off to talk. he kinda creeps me out in a silence of the lambs kinda way.....!!!!!!!!! i don't like clowns,, kinda knife clownlike...... IT PUTS THE FFBM IN THE BASKET!!!!!

highly entertaining video....though....

 

[Ken44]

Heck TL, when I first saw you breaking that cinder block with a .187 BATAC that was all I needed to know about Busse's toughness:thumbup:

Not to mention all the others HERE that Hogs have put up many of.

I love your vids(you don't call them test or wear a mask) TL, and always have:thumbup:


You can tell by this thread a few days ago many either like or dislike his style. I know the CRK "test" would not keep me from buying, and hope it would not others http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563397

BTW-I'm out of this(I hope). My feeling on this will never change...but I do have many friend here that may like his style, and vids. I don't wish to disrepsect those friends.

Also think this thread needs to be moved as it has drifted far from Busse's.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

You can tell by this thread a few days ago many either like or dislike his style. I know the CRK "test" would not keep me from buying, and hope it would not others http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563397

I would hope that what people who buy a CRK would get from the video is that you need to be careful and watchful when chopping or batoning near or on rocky area's.

with a busse or a sy or a sr I'd be willing to baton ontop of a rock/concrete/boulder for convenience sake, but with a crk (given the results), I'd want to get another flat peice of wood to put under the log's/wood I'm batoning into. they are still worth owning, it's just good to know what their limitations are.

wich kinda hits on the initial post (to bring the thread back in line a little ) - even when a knife is stated as being usable for a given task, until you have seen where it will break when doing that task you can never really know how much force you can put on it. with a busse you can go ape on it, not really caring where or at what angle or on what surface you hit the blade, but from a different maker with a different steel (even if it had the same geometry), you may need to be more cautious, take your time and aim your strikes.

I think it would be ridiculous to think that a knife with the crk's geometry wouldn't be able to take batoning (unless somehow it was brought to 69rc), you just need to be aware of whats happening with the knife as your doing it. seems like common sense, but busse's can make you lazy

 

[u812]

I did just go try to watch some.Made it most of the way through the first BM test.
If there were controls in place to make testing the same and he did not want to hide from people I could stand to watch them and may even get something out of them.

 

[Uncle_Jarvis]

Holy shit people !

Where have I been... This thread sure is something else.

There obviously is not much intelect put behind the tests and consistancy of procedures varies vastly from knife to knife..

I just see these tests for what they simply are. "watch me beat on knife until break"
I'm not about to start bashing a masked dude from the back woods. Many of you folks made your point on that topic...

Still... give the dude some credit for doing all these videos in his spare time...

 

[Cobalt]

Ok, first to answer the original question, INFI holds an edge far better than most steels and it also sharpens about as easily as 1095. What INFI does is it resharpen itself, it will begin to dull and then it will sharpen again while you use it and this strange behavior causes it to last much longer than most steels in edge holding. The only other metals which I have experienced exhibiting this behavior to a lesser extent are Stellite 6K and Missions beta Ti. However, both dull much faster than INFI, but for their hardness have unbelievable edge holding.

Anyway, I purchased my first INFI knives back in 1998 and received them piecemeal in late 98 and early 99. I have used a few of them beyond what they were meant to do. I used one for work strictly and that is the one I do not show in pics. Then I have used another one for this whole time to chop wood, cut boxes, cut rope, and throw. That knife has been thrown over 10,000 times and stuck into wood 90% of the time, and that same knife has been used to chop and reduce 4-5 chords of wood for winter use. I have used other blades during this whole time and none have survived. The most impressive part, besides the fact that it never failed, is that I would not need to sharpen it but once a season after all that hard use. this knife is now in the hands of Pbubsy and he can tell you what it looks like. Also I once posted a video of throwing this knife and a few others and in this video this knife's edge hit the other knife's tang, with amazingly no damage.

So do I need Noss' testing to tell me about INFI, no as I have lived it.

Do I feel Noss' testing is good. yes, his test is a destruction test, all knives will fail and we all kow that. It is how they fail that matters and his tests provide that data. If there were not people doing this kind of testing in all industries, you would not catch me flying a plane, riding a train, or driving a car. So, IMO, his testing is valid and has credence. As for the mask, I will not fault anyone for not wanting to show their face all over the internet. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Guyon]

IT PUTS THE FFBM IN THE BASKET!!!!!

Okay, I don't care which side you come down on... that's funny. :thumbup:

As for the mask, I will not fault anyone for not wanting to show their face all over the internet. Nothing wrong with that.

I understand this point Cobalt.

There's also this angle to consider though. noss4 puts the reputations of identifiable knife companies on the line with his publicly available videos. Some consumers probably make choices about buying because of one of his videos. But noss4's identity is somewhere behind a user name and a funny mask. When you read reviews in a magazine or newspaper, you typically read a name in the byline. A real name of someone who puts his reputation and his name at risk.

Someone like Tyrkon, on the other hand, hides behind neither mask nor username with his videos. He's out there, take him or leave him, and I feel like he cares about the overall reputation he establishes within the knife community, especially the Busse community. While I appreciate noss4's desire for anonymity on the internet, I have even more appreciation for someone like Tyrkon who is willing to just lay it all out. He's not looking for attention or for fans. If something he does offends, he can't just write it off or walk away. After all, his name's on it.

Maybe noss4 really does care about the knives in this same way, but I'm still not convinced of this. Early on, he seemed to revel in the fanfare way too much, and even now, he can go overboard if people dare question his procedures (or his mask). I can respect the effort that has gone into noss4's collection of videos, but unlike some folks, I have trouble separating the person from the procedures.

Does all this make one hill of beans one way or the other? Not really. You still can't beat a Busse for a hard-use knife. And the thinner slicers hold an edge like nobody's business.

 

[hardheart]

let me help out those who took the thread off topic and then stated that it needed to be moved because it was off-topic.