Are these really custom knives?

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
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This has been bugging me for a long time and I thought it was time to get the opinions of others on this forum.

More and more of the knives that I have been seeing as of late are obviously the result of water jet cutters and CNC machines. I call these cookie cutter knives. Every one of them looks exactly like the last one. There will be certain restricted options that are available, but you are not able to request any real customized features be added to the knife other than those limited options.

Another thing that I wonder about with knives like this is, are they really worth what is being charged for them? I guess you can say that a knife is worth what someone will pay for it, but when about the only work being done by the maker is the final assembly and a little final finishing, should this not lead to a reduction in the price of these knives?

About the only difference I see in these knives and those put out by CRK is that the final finishing is being done by the maker himself.

This does not make these bad knives. In fact most of them are probably exceptionally good ones. What these knives are not, in my opinion, are what I consider to be custom knives. One thing they definitely are not is hand made.

I know that this issue has been raised here before. It is always a touchy subject. The reason that I am raising it again is that I have noticed a proliferation of this kind of knife over the last year or so and was wondering what everybody else thought about this.

[Edited to tidy up a bunch of typos]
 
Keith,

This issue has come up any number of times.

I do not believe in custom knives. To me a knife is simply a product with certain attributes. How it gets put together, whether by machine, by hand, or, by magic; massed produced, or, individually produced; it is the quality and desirability of the piece that matters. Although, I own many custom knives, I have not and would not pay a single cent merely for the virtue of having a "custom".

Many would disagree with my position, and I can understand and appreciate their perspective. I suspect, in sum, we are not that far apart. The word custom is merely a charade, what really matters to all of us are things like craftsmanship, quality, availability, demand, suitability, customer service, warranty, and personal bias. These things are all independent of whether we choose to call a knife "custom made".

n2s
 
One of the reasons that I went into custom knives is that I'm left handed and that was almost the only way for me to get a decent knife. One maker that I like especially is Tom Mayo. His knives are custom. Each one is a little different. His blade sizes vary by how he feels that day. He is very flexible and tries to make the knife you want. As far as I know he doesn't use any jigs. I know what you mean by cookie cutter but not all knife makers are that way. I think the reason that they do that is so that they can make a lot of knives at one time and that way increase productivity.
 
If it's a 'One of a kind', or if you specified a design change, then it's a 'Custom' knife...

Other than that, it's just a production, a hand finished production, or a handmade knife...nothing more, nothing less.

Deal with it folks.

Mel
 
I'm not a knife maker, but I do make and make a lot of things. I design and create them. All the work is done by me. But I use many tools. Sometimes fancy high-tech sophisticated tools.

When parts are outsourced and things are automated, that's when a custom is not a custom in my eyes. Not merely because a CNC machine was used to create something artistic. I can do things with machines that just could not be done otherwise.

If I were to make knives I'm sure I would be a perfectionist as I am with my other trades. I make jigs and templates when I need to make more than one of something. I made the first one, to me that is what matters. All I'm doing is making many, as good as the first one. Some knife makers take this to an extreme and some just use these methods on the rough work. When finish work is done in this manner than yes it looses its custom status to me.

Unless of course you are refering to knives like Protechs. A Godfather for example is made with new high tech methods along with some hand finishing of blades, but some are very unique and still require skill and creatiity to make. Are they "Custom"? in a sense yes. Are they 100% handmade? Of course not.

So who the hell knows. The only thing I know for sure: If you are concerned about the authenticity of your so called handmade custom knife, ask the maker a lot of questions and do your homework. If you do your homework you will learn who does what and who doesn't.

If I buy a Sebenza, I want it to be exactly like the one I saw and liked. If I buy a Phil Hartsfield I want it to be unique.

If I pick and choose materials and finishes than no matter the method it would be custom made to my desire. It may not be handmade but it could be a limited edition pre production prototype 1 of 1 knife. :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:
 
Scott, I am not in any way including Tom's knives in this category. I agree that each of his knives is different the others and I personally find them very appealing.

Shel my Friend, I agree with you completely.

Armsraised, you make some excellent points. CNC machines can be used as just another tool for a custom maker to do a better job of certain things pertaining to the finished knife. It is when the only thing done by the maker is the final assembly and the removal of some burrs that I think the crossover to production knife has been made.

N2S, I certainly do not find anything wrong with your thoughts on what is and is not important to you in a knife. After all, it is you and only you that has to be satisfied with the final product. If you would not pay one extra cent to have a custom knife, that is your decision. I would.
 
Not2sharp, I agree with everything you said. I think the knives that KWM is talking about would be almost identical to the DDR Kit knives. There has been a whole lot of discussion on CKD about these kits, and about people trying to pass these off as custom made Knives.

armsraised, I understand the points about designing the first one, and making the jigs and templates, but if DDR finished off one of his KITS does it become a custom knife, just because he designed it? IF some of the makers who are making cookie cutter knives made their knives available in kit forum and they were put together buy someone else would they be considered custom knives. I think the answer to both of my stupid questions is no. I wouldn't consider them hand made either. If any major component of a knife is mass produced, I think the appropriate term for the knife should be customized knife. By major component, I mean blade, and liners/handles. I think it is ridiculous to require all the tiny parts be such as screws, pivot pins, and thumstuds to be made by the maker.


I personally don't care how a knife is made, as long as it performs, and the maker is honest about how they are made. I think the cookie cutter knives would tend to have better overall quality for the price than truly hand made knives.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
Personally it does not matter to me either as long as the information on the knife is conveyed honestly.

If it is not, I have a huge problem.
 
Generally, I am unconcerned about the processes used to design and complete the knife, as long as it is clear what those processes were.

What I take real exception to is certain "custom" knifemakers that refuse to "customize" their cookie cutter work.

If the only "custom" feature is a change in scale materials, I don't think that "custom" is the operative concept.

A true "custom" knife is an interaction between the maker and the customer. If the only interaction you paying for their pre-determined choices, then I say the only thing that differentiates these guys from factory knife producers is the higher level of detail and finish.

I am currently frustrated with a particular knifemaker that simply refuses to make even the slighest modifications to their designs.:mad:
 
I'm with not2sharp on this. Words don't mean much to me. But then again, 99.9% of my knives were purchased on the basis of functionality or aesthetics. I don't really consider myself much of a collector, so the history of the knife isn't very relevant to me. There are items that I do collect, whose histories are important to me. Knives just aren’t one of them…… yet. ;)
 
I would just say that I don't like the way that the term "custom knife" is typically used. I don't think there is really a Custom Knife Industry today, but rather a Handmade Knife Industry (yes there are a few that would qualify as custom, but it's not an industry). And I don't even want to go into what is handmade other than, it wasn't built by a factory, but rather one or two people in a shop behind someone's house. On the subject of CNC or belt saw or a file only, etc I have varying levels of like and dislike but nothing automatically disqualifies it from being (mostly) handmade and close enough to me if I like the knife.
To me a true custom would be something that is one of a kind that was designed by the maker alone or with input from a customer on things like blade shape, handle shape, materials used, etc and not replicated for the next 500 people that want that knife. Even if you buy a knife from maker X and tell him you want wood X for the handle and not the G10 that they usually offer, doesn't make the knife custom in my mind.
Take a look at custom cars. You would be hard pressed to find two exactly alike, but other than paint you could find two hotrods pretty close.
 
I always try to make sure people understand I consider my knives are Handmade knives, not Custom knives. I refer to myself as a Professional Knifemaker, not a Custom Knifemaker. I have on occasion built a knife very close to customer specs ( somethings have to be changed to make it feesable ), based upon their desires. The bulk of my work is simply handmade.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
This has been bugging me for a long time and I thought it was time to get the opinions of others on this forum.

More and more of the knives that I have been seeing as of late are obviously the result of water jet cutters and CNC machines. I call these cookie cutter knives. Every one of them looks exactly like the last one. There will be certain restricted options that are available, but you are not able to request any real customized features be added to the knife other than those limited options.
Click to expand...


Like N2S said, this has been brought up many times.
But who are these makers you refer to. it's always stated as the mysterious "these knives" "those makers". I would think you would want to be more specific, as it tars the rest of "us", that don't do "this", with the same brush. :confused:
 
The definition of "Custom Knife" certainly opens up a tremendous amount of heated debate.

IMHO If the customer is not involved in the specifications for the finished knife it is not Custom and if they are it is.

The problem is that the generally accepted industry concensus and the Knifemakers Guild definition do not agree with what I believe is a common sense definition.

That definition would also mean that I do not currently own a "True" Custom Knife since the knives that I own have been purchased from makers at shows and have not been ordered to my specifications.

I tend to agree with several others that as collectors and Knife Lovers we should try to avoid fueling that fire by not getting hung up on terminology.
 
Keith Montgomery, your original premise that started this thread is faulty. CRK only CNC's the handles, the blades are all ground by hand, not by CR himself, but by others. I know, because I've met one of them. Please make sure you have your facts right before throwing out the "bait" to start a feeding frenzy!

Bruce
 
So are knives made or produced? Done so in a Factory or shop?
Production, semi-production, semi-custom, custom, hand-made, customized. Sharpened by hand or hand sharpened. Buffed to a mirror finish or hand-buffed to a mirror finish. If more than one knife is exactly alike, are they "mass produced".

I give:eek: :eek:

and CR does NOT finish every blade? How dare he:rolleyes: :p ;)
 
wolfmann601, as I stated above, I don't think CR assembles/fits "any" blades himself. All blades "are" hand ground and the folders fitted, but by employees.

Bruce
 
Everyone makes some fine points & has educated me a little more about 'what is a custom knife?' I had a Bowie-type knife made from a drawing I supplied to a knifemaker. It was my idea with his refinements & turned out great. On the paperwork supplied with the finished knife, it states - 'One of a kind customer design'. I would assume that this knife is a custom. If the knifemaker makes more knives from my drawing, are they also customs? I can see where the term 'hand-made' is probably more accurate.
 
I don't see why it would be so important for the <i>buyer</i> to have input in order to call the knife "custom". If its a one-off knife and [mostly] hand made it doesn't matter whether the design came from a customer or from the imagination of the knife maker, its still a "custom knife".

Come to think of it, I'm not even sure it has to be hand made. Suppose I design the knife on my computer and it is a one-of-a-kind, then my little 3D fabricator creates the knife I designed without any further input from me. Wouldn't it still be a "custom knife" albeit no longer "hand made"? If I go ahead and then make 1000 of them, its no longer a "custom knife" though it would be a "custom designed knife", but the very <i><b>first</b></i> knife off my production line would still have been a "custom knife".

I am currently frustrated with a particular knifemaker that simply refuses to make even the slighest modifications to their designs.
Click to expand...

I understand the frustration, but knife makers, custom or otherwise, have to make a living and have to balance their business with their family life, etc. Each makes the decisions (concerning how they will run their knife business) that will work for them, and like any other professional, you just have to respect that. When I want a modification like that, I might go find another custom maker who does similar work and say, "see this knife... I want one just like that except...." etc., and see what happens. Of course taking this tack you might expect to pay considerably more than you might have hoped had the original maker done the work... Again, I understand the frustration...
 
Rather than bore you all with my opinion I thought I would share someone with a bit more authority on the subject :D

Bob Loveless: "The majority of people, including some collectors and a lot of knifemakers, tend to confuse the terms, custom and benchmade," he insists. "I make benchmade knives. So do alot of other makers. That means we make a knife of our own or even a standard design by hand-on the bench, so to speak. A custom knife is created when a customer comes to a maker with his own design and that knifemaker agrees to build the knife to the customer's design and specifications. Custom is when you are giving the customer specifically what he wants and is willing to pay for."

The above quote is from The Gun Digest Book of Knives all new 4th edition copyright MCMXCII by Jack Lewis and Roger Combs

That pretty much sums it up for me. :)

Mongrel
 
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