Are these really custom knives?

If a customer visits my website and orders one of my Guadalupe II's in MOP, ladder blade and Ti bolsters, filework, etc... he ordered a handmade folder, just ordered it the way he likes it.

If a customer visits my website, doesn't find anything he likes, I can make a custom for him. He is "comissioning" the work. I've done this maybe 4 or 5 times over the years. I can work with the customer to give them what they want. I won't tackle something that takes me completely out of my element or is in truly bad taste, but if the piece is feasible and I feel comfortable tackling the job, we make it. Most of my extra time is compensated for and $$ added to the price. A couple of the pieces I did ended up very nice and after consulting with the customer and asking permisiion, I have made subsequent knives similar to the custom. These are not customs anymore!

If I make a knife, comissioned custom or not, that is the only one like it, EVER, then it is a one-of-a-kind.

This mindset (right or wrong) is the way I handle my business. I make knives for me because I enjoy it. The fact that others like my knives, and I can sell them so I can make more, is a cool plus. I love it when people admire my work. That's part of what gives me joy in my work, but the craft itself makes me love what I do.
 
Mike, I am sorry if you think that I am trying to paint all knifemakers with the same brush. That was certainly not my intention. Not for one minute did I even think of your knives as being of the cookie cutter variety. I do not think it is necessary to post the names of the makers of these knives as I think that everybody that frequents this forum has seen these knives and knows what I am referring to.

Bruce, I did not say that CRK used a CNC machine to do their blades. Though I do not know for sure, I would think that they are profiled using a water or laser cutter and then the grinding is done by hand.

As far as whether knives are called custom, handmade or benchmade really is not important to this topic. What I wonder is if these knives should be called any of the above. It is my opinion that the answer is no.
 
A year ago when I posed a similar question, a question that was met with groan's of..."Oh God, not this again..." Hisses, boo's, mud, tomato's, and arrows were all sent my way...but I wasn't backing down.

If 'you', the buyer, design the knife, or if 'you' have input on the design of the knife that goes beyond materials selected, or if the knife maker makes a knife like no other, on his own or with help, or if the final product is a 'One-of-a-kind' knife...then, and only then, is it truly a 'custom' knife.

I'm ever so thankful, that so many of us recognize this fact for what it is...a fact. And this fact, as such, in no way diminishes the value of any other knife, whether that knife be a quality handmade knife, or a simple production made knife.

It simply takes away the misrepresentation that any/all handmade knives are 'custom' knives...for the most part they're not, but that's ok, because in many cases they are just as nice if not better than 'custom' knives.

It's ok to be a handmade knife, it's good enough..."Handmade knives rise up and rejoice!"

As to just what makes a handmade knife handmade, one term at a time here folks, one term at a time...and we're just putting 'custom' to bed.

Mel

"Hallelujeh, for all the good chillin's have finally seen the light..." ;)
 
Bruce are you including the flat ground CRK folders in your statements?
 
...is missing the point! :rolleyes:

Tim Herman, (Sorry bastid that he is) makes 'custom knives'; Tim Hancock, makes custom knives; other makers, all makers, any maker; when he/she/it, makes something unique, a 'One-of', a 'First of', something original, something that they, or the customer, or they and the customer, designed...then it's a 'custom' knife.

Other than that, it's 'something else'...but it's NOT a 'custom' knife.

Shelby Mustangs are NOT custom cars..but if Carroll had built you a 'one-of' Aluminum block 427 with a special gear-box or racing suspension per your spec's, that would be a 'custom' race car...

If you take your '95 Acura, rebuild the motor, transmission, suspension, trick out the interior/exterior, change tires, rims, etc. that becomes a 'one-of' 'custom' car...your design, your dream.

But, if Saleen Racing builds 20 Mustangs using the same parts, and just changes color on some of them...NONE of them is a 'custom' car, other than the first one.

If a knife maker, regardless of the method used, makes more than one, or makes similar knives, changing cosmetics only, then it's not a 'custom' knife...period

Mel
 
db, the person I talked to didn't differentiate between models. He just said that all blades were hand ground.

Bruce
 
This whole brouhaha stems from the fact that the Knifemakers Guild defines their purpose as, "to promote custom knives and knifemakers." They saw fit to define the term "custom knife" as "making of benchmade knives for sale to the public, including the grinding and/or forging of their own knives." This allowed knifemakers belonging to the Guild (and some not belonging but making knives on their own) to call their knives "custom". Those makers and sellers who deal in "custom" knives intimate their knives are made on the bench by themselves.

This Guild's definition of "custom" flies in the face of standard usage of the term and the dictionary definition, which is, "made or performed according to personal order."

If a maker produces the same knife over and over again, but makes it himself, it is a custom by Guild definition. This confuses the rest of the world where a custom suit may not be made by one person, but is made to the customers specifications (usually his or her body measurements with customer choice of materials and options).

The Guild is well meaning, they just used a confusing term. They have a right to define their work, but also a responsibility to explain to the public why they did so. The rest of us who live in more than one realm have to be on guard to the meaning of "custom" when we see it applied to knives.

As a purchaser of "custom" knives (both definitions) I've raised this issue before but have been told I have no standing in the matter. Unless Guild members are going to sell knives to each other, I think customers have a standing. The Guild definition of "custom" is so entrenched that it would be next to impossible for them to change the definition. It is probably not necessary if they would put the definition on their web site and ensure those who sell customs are also able to educate the customer and reduce confusion.

Bruce Woodbury
 
I normally choose not to become embroilled in the 'custom/handmade/etc' debate, but I have a serious question that has troubled me.
Here is the scenario. A customer orders and receives a one-of-a-kind knife built to his/her specifications (a 'custom' knife). Later, the customer sells the knife to another collector. Is the knife still considered a 'custom'? Please explain.

Brett
 
Here's another question. Lets say a maker makes a knife to a customer's specs, it is clearly a custom, but then, the maker puts a picture of it on their website as an example of their work, and upon seeing it, a new customer says he wants the same knife. Are either of these knives customs anymore?

How about where a customer has the maker make a knife to his specs, then, a year later, another customer, purely coincidentally, asks for the same exact configuration. Is either knife custom anymore?

Finally, what about a maker like Frank Centofante. He has certain patterns of knives that he makes more than one of. For example, i recently bought one of his beautiful knives off a website. Then, i saw what appeared to be the same knife on another website. I gather from the discussion that i dont have a custom knife, merely a handmade knife. But, i love it, its beautifully made and honestly, had I chosen the specs myself, it would have been nearly the same configuration. If i sent it to him to add a thumbstud of my own design, i guess i would now have a custom?

I think we are all arguing about semantics. A knife is a knife, it is what it is, whether you call it handmade or custom doesnt make the knife any better or worse, if you like it, thats what matters.
 
I believe that Bruce summed the situation up quite well.

The knife industry as a result of the Knifemakers Guild's well meaning efforts has a different definition of Custom than the rest of the world.

We can either live with that or push for a change.

I believe that trying to force the change will do far more harm than good.

So for my own peace of mind I simply push for full disclosure of methods and materials when purchasing a "Custom Knife".
 
Custom=benchmade=handmade for most of the knife world. Whether its one knife or one model or a thousand similar knives.

I think the real dilemma arises when someone is having a lot of the parts (or all of them) made on a machine in another state (or country for that matter)....and I am NOT talking about the screws!!
 
Bruce nailed it on the head better than anyone else has. (and after my time on the net I have read a bunch of good stuff and some horse hockey at times on the subject :)). Sometimes I have been a little subtle and other times (sorry 'bout that Mel :D), I have used a hammer.

This whole brouhaha stems from the fact that the Knifemakers Guild defines their purpose as, "to promote custom knives and knifemakers." They saw fit to define the term "custom knife" as "making of benchmade knives for sale to the public, including the grinding and/or forging of their own knives." This allowed knifemakers belonging to the Guild (and some not belonging but making knives on their own) to call their knives "custom". Those makers and sellers who deal in "custom" knives intimate their knives are made on the bench by themselves.

This Guild's definition of "custom" flies in the face of standard usage of the term and the dictionary definition, which is, "made or performed according to personal order."

If a maker produces the same knife over and over again, but makes it himself, it is a custom by Guild definition. This confuses the rest of the world where a custom suit may not be made by one person, but is made to the customers specifications (usually his or her body measurements with customer choice of materials and options).

The Guild is well meaning, they just used a confusing term. They have a right to define their work, but also a responsibility to explain to the public why they did so. The rest of us who live in more than one realm have to be on guard to the meaning of "custom" when we see it applied to knives.

As a purchaser of "custom" knives (both definitions) I've raised this issue before but have been told I have no standing in the matter. Unless Guild members are going to sell knives to each other, I think customers have a standing. The Guild definition of "custom" is so entrenched that it would be next to impossible for them to change the definition. It is probably not necessary if they would put the definition on their web site and ensure those who sell customs are also able to educate the customer and reduce confusion.
Click to expand...


Folks, for me the category does not matter. Owning a few in just about any category we can come up with, even factory (oops did I type that :)), I can say that the broad interpretation that the majority of the industry and the Guild uses has positive and negative aspects.

Positive -

Threads like this. I really appreciate the way you folks have handled things. In the past not much understanding has been reached in these types of threads (to say the least). This one has been interesting and has made me think even more about the matter.

Lots of makers under one roof. There are makers that only make what they want to make. (You would be surprised). There are makers that will make exactly what the customer wants and there are makers that fit in the middle all along the curve. There are stock removal makers. There are makers who forge and there are makers that do both. There are makers that uses self programmed CNC. There are makers that use pre-programmed CNC and the list goes on. Having all that under one hat is a good thing. By nature it is going to be a tough thing to keep focused at times :).

Marketing. It is a part of business and it is good for the makers and the collectors. (It is a little different than it is in other busines (there is that darn subtlety again) :), but I have to admit that Custom knife show sounds better than Benchmade knife show, Handmade knife show or Non-factory knife show:D.




Negative -
It does create confusion, but lets keep it in perspective. We are talking about a category.

Improper use of a word according to the dictionary.
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I think the positive outweighs the negative.

As a collector the only thing that means anything to me is:
1. Do I like the knife.
2. Do I have respect for the maker as a person (knives aside).
(not real sure that I will end up knowing them "darn near as well as his wife" :D, but like fisk I am going to get to know them pretty darn well or their rep is awsome according to the friends and folks whose experience I respect.

(No particular order on those and one can out-weigh the other at any time.)

Disclaimer :yawn: .
The above is just my opinion. It is not special. It could be correct or incorrect. It really does not matter in the long run and is not intended to exclude anyone or any style of making non-factory knives :D
 
Exactly Tom. When we talk of custom knives today we are talking in a much broader sense than the true definition of custom. Custom=Benchmade=Handmade is exactly the way I think of custom knives. The term Custom Knife includes all three of these classifications as far as I am concerned. I guess what I am saying is that I agree with the Guild definition of a custom knife.

If a person buys a knife that was custom made for another person, it is my opinion that that knife is still a custom knife no matter how many times it is sold. This goes back to the first part of this post. Since it is my belief that what we term as custom knives are any custom, benchmade or handmade knife, then just because it passes from one hand to another does not disqualify it as a custom knife.

When a second knife is made that is as close to the first as can be possibly done within the bounds of what accepted as a custom knife, then as far as I am concerned they are both custom knives. Although the first one is no longer a one of a kind.

Now, as far as the knives that I at first alluded to. These knives are not made by the maker. They are assembled and finished by the maker and that is about it. Should we include these knives in our rather broad definition of a custom knife? Should they have their own classification? Does it really matter to you, or do you not really care one way or the other?

I am also very impressed with how civil this has stayed. It has become a very good discussion and has had some great points raised.
 
Mayo, you dont make yer own screws? :eek: :eek:

This whole thread makes my head ache. I found a simple way of being honest about it, I just mark my semi production knives with a different mark.

Nothing like beating a dead horse! :p
 
No, what the thread is about is people who are NOT honest about this, and who do NOT use another mark, and are charging as much or more for their made in someone elses factory production knives as many makers who are pumping out knives one at a time on their burr king!
 
Sorry to have given you a headache Rob, but I don't think this is beating a dead horse at all. The fact it has been brought up before does not mean that it should be forever left unspoken of in the present or future. There are new people joining this forum every day and maybe they have some different views on this subject than have been put forward in the past.

I greatly respect the fact that you use a different mark on your semi-production knives, but some others do not. If they did, I would not have found it necessary to bring up this topic. It is my opinion that makers should be a little more up front about this information and it should not fall on the shoulders of the prospective purchasers to have to have to find this out for themselves.

Once again let me state that I do not consider these knives to be good or bad based on the fact that they are not truely custom knives. They probably are better than many of the custom knives out there. One thing is for sure, they will be very consistent in their quality.
 
appreciate the civility shown in this thread, and that civility better serves our knife community than that last (nasty) 'go-round'.

I'm especially thankful to the knife makers responding here that shed a little light on their craft, their take on the issue, and the way that they present their product.

The simple fact is, terminology aside, these guys, in addition to their benchmade/handmade knives, also make some of the best customs around.

Thank you all, makers included, for being so forthright and candid with your thoughts...you've all presented yourselves well, and have made this an insightful thread worth preserving.

That said, I'm left with just one question...

"Gus, do I know you?" :p

Buds,

Mel
 
I'm with Mel on this one. Just to throw a couple of makers into my example (since they piped up):

Say I dash into the Eugene "custom knife show" and start looking around. I see a sweetheart of a tiger striped piece over at Simovabich's table, and a must-have swiss-cheezed-out folder next door on Mayo's table. Before I shell out any cash, am I going to ask them if they are one of's? Am I gonna debate them about whether or not they made their own sandpaper?

Hell no.

I'm gonna shell out a wad of sweaty bills and take both those knives home.... knowing that every dime spent was well worth it, having gotten 2 knives that I will cherish and beat the hell out of with supreme confidence. I won't worry about whether I have 2 "custom" knives or not. Fact is I got 2 ass-kickin' knives.

Ain't that the way our little world should work?
 
I don't know the names of any "custom" makers who may be straying a bit far from the Guild definition but I know it is not Chris Reeve, the first example used in the first post of this thread. He has not marketed his current line of knives as "custom" in any sense of the word. He produces a great product at a reasonable price. I don't use the word "great" lightly, I know because I carried a Sebenza during the last few years of my military career before retiring recently.

There is one seller of "custom" knives who has put CRK in the "factory" knife category, but he deserves something better than that. I don't know what category to put CRK, Randall, etc. in -- semi-production or something might do, but there is certainly a tendency on the part of some in the "custom" knife world to relegate them to some lesser status. In fact, makers in this category have learned to make a "custom" quality knife using a few more people and equipment. Not the volume or the technical sophistication of the large knife manufacturers, but using people who could stand alone as knife makers in their own right. ...and many have become such -- Scott Cook comes to mind. It just seems that with some custom knife people there are "customs" and everything else.

I hope we can find a way to this other category and recognize it for what it is.

Bruce
 
Keith, I thought about what you posted, you are right. I guess it is just a dead horse in my case as I didnt want to have to explain sometime in the future that some of my knives are not completly hand made! I didnt mean it shouldnt be discussed, I agree it should be discussed.

Bruce, I use the term Mid-Tech to catagorize the semi production knives, I got the term from Ken Onion, and he told me he got it from someone else. Here is a picture of the new mark, and a link to the Mid-Tech section on my site. http://www.simonichknives.com/midtech.htm
 

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