Are we too pre-occupied with full tang blades?

kgd

kgd

Joined
Feb 28, 2007
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It seems an almost rare occurrence to see custom covered tang blades posted here. We had a couple of good examples recently. The reason I'm posting this thread is to talk about some of the advantages of covered tang blades.

On the one hand, full tangs provide immediate recognition of the characteristics of the tang and this conveys some display of its strength attributes. A covered tang is not immediately apparent how long or how thick the tang is relative to the blade. However, in today's digital age with the availability of good cameras, a maker can easily take a couple of pictures of the knife 'in process' to show the tang before covering it with a handle.

There are some clear advantages to covered tang knives. They provide insulation against the cold. They are more flexible in the types of shapes and ergos that can be built into them. You can add an attractive and useful butt plate that is far more effective at hammering than a piece of exposed tang. Some handle styles, like stacked leather, can only be done fully covered. A covered tang can be built as strong as a full tang blade. I'm thinking of my scrapyard blades here.

So why do we see so few covered tang bushcraft and survival blades? Clearly the classic leuku and pukko blades are all covered tangs, yet the high end custom scandi's mostly seem to all be full tang? Is this just market niche and product differentiation?

This thread is both a tribute to the covered tang bushcraft/survival blade and a chance to discuss its merits.
 
Covered tangs do have the benefits you mention.
But an exposed tang just inspires so much confidence in it's strength; it's sort of a comfort thing, I think.
My friend has beat the hell out of his Kabar in the woods and still not had a failure.
Covered tangs, when done right, will take alot of abuse.
 
i beat the hell out of my kabar and i love the fact that i can however i am a bit more careful with the blade on it than i am with my mochassin ranger
 
I've been thinking about this recently too Ken. Historically the stick tang has been far more prevalent. Aesthetically, a covered tang is nicer too. I suspect that a stick tang or covered tang is more than sufficient for most of what we do with our knives--when it is well designed and executed. As long as there is adequate transition for stress, i.e. no abrupt changes in the tang width, it is a very strong design. I don't hear people complaining that their Randall knives are failing. Your Koyote Leuku seems to handle heavy use easily.

We are wary of stick tangs because some bad designs and bad production resulted in failures. But I've used several stick tangs and never had an issue.
 
A properly done hidden tang will not break due to the tang. The tang on a full tang will be stronger but if you break a knife it probably won't be at the tang (on a properly done hidden tang). It will probably be close to the tip. IMHO, I don't think theres a disadvantage in a hidden tang, only in the owner's confidence in the knife. Oh, and as a knifemaker, hidden tangs are a lot more difficult to make. I've been making just about all full tang blades lately because that's what most people want. I mean people in this forum who use their knives. Collectors like hidden tang knives with metal bolsters and guards. Full tangs are also much easier for me to do. Why should I do anymore hidden tangs when my customers prefer full tangs and they're easier to do?:o
 
kgd said:
So why do we see so few covered tang bushcraft and survival blades?
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Easier to make for average custom maker. You may note that industrial makers often make hidden tangs notably because they can easily get plastic molding tooling.

kgd said:
Clearly the classic leuku and pukko blades are all covered tangs, yet the high end custom scandi's mostly seem to all be full tang? Is this just market niche and product differentiation? .
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Nope, classic scandis have rat tail tangs. The t.ng on bushcraft knife is thicker. The tang being thicker makes it more difficult to make hidden tang.
 
Hidden tang knives when done properly can have considerable advantages. Especialy in arctic environments (as in the puukko and leukko knives) since they dont transmit cold to the hand.

Another traditional knife which uses the hidden tang and is specificaly designed for HEAVY use is the kukri. Properly forged and done there is very little chance of a failure at the tang. In fact I have yet to see one fail though I guess a few folks have been able to break those blades It has taken a herculean effort to do so.

The design is sound enough that Himalayan Imports actualy guarantees their handles for life.

I think we here in the good ol USA have just gotten stuck on the slab tang and it's greater percieved strength, and have overlooked a couple thopusand years of knife design. The percieved weakness of the hidden tangs in our eyes may be due to the tendency of some manufacturers to improperly produce the transition area of the blade which causes a weak point prone to breakage. This is a problem not of an intrinsicaly bad design but of improper manufacturing techniques used by some unscrupulous manufacturers. News of their products failures makes others leary of the desogn itself.
 
I think I have more stick-tangs in my rotation than I do full-exposed tangs. The reasons you mentioned are all contributing, but my main reasons are that with a stick tang, you have more versatility with how you can shape the handle or have the handle shaped (I like the handle to come above the axis of the spine of the blade, which is rare to see on full-exposed tangs because of the extra grinding required). Also, it is a balance thing for me. Ideally, I like the knife to balance where my first finger will go. That is in part because of my carving technique, in which a heavy handle can be quite combersome.
 
Great comments all.


raylaconico said:
Oh, and as a knifemaker, hidden tangs are a lot more difficult to make. I've been making just about all full tang blades lately because that's what most people want. I mean people in this forum who use their knives. Collectors like hidden tang knives with metal bolsters and guards. Full tangs are also much easier for me to do. Why should I do anymore hidden tangs when my customers prefer full tangs and they're easier to do?:o
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Thanks Ray - this is exactly what I was trying to get at.

Is it market demand and perceived performance that is really driving the trend, is it complication of manufacture coupled with low market demand?

Does a competent, well built hidden tang blade sit in the maker's for sale longer because of such perceptions? When a hidden tang blade is built, and requires greater engineering it should demand a higher price point. Yet it may suffer from a bias in consumer desirability. If this is the case, and the market demand is based on a falce preconception than maybe we should be working to change that attitude.


Big mike - great blades!
 
kgd said:
Is it market demand and perceived performance that is really driving the trend, is it complication of manufacture coupled with low market demand?

Does a competent, well built hidden tang blade sit in the maker's for sale longer because of such perceptions? When a hidden tang blade is built, and requires greater engineering it should demand a higher price point. Yet it may suffer from a bias in consumer desirability. If this is the case, and the market demand is based on a falce preconception than maybe we should be working to change that attitude.
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I may have been guilty of this prejudice in the past.


But, as others have stated, the balance and possible variation in handle shape keep drawing me back to hidden tang knives.


They just seem to work for me. :thumbup: :cool: :thumbup:









Big Mike

”Scaring the tree huggers.”

Forest & Stream
 
I think people started gravitating to full tang knives because of companies who make weak hidden tang knives. So people prefer full tang so they know that there is strength there. Personally, I'm to the point now where I'm only buying really nice knives that are done well so I'm less concerned wether it's full tang or not. I don't think a full tang is necessarily better than a properly done hidden tang.
 
I've had times when I had a hidden tang knife for sale and a potential buyer asks, "Is that a full tang?". I tell them, "no" and I never hear back from them again. This makes me think that I just lost a sale because it wasn't a full tang. I just spent all that extra time and effort to make a nice hidden tang knife when I could have sold it faster, made it faster, easier, and the same price if it had a full exposed tang.

Here's a picture of one of my hidden tangs before I put the handle on.. If I purposely broke this blade on a vice, I can't see it breaking at the tang or because it had a hidden tang. It would break close to the tip where it's fully hard and there's less steel, and that's not a weak tip!
ht.jpg
 
I think Ray has the right of it. It is much faster to make slab handled knives -- two or three short, straight holes vs. boring out a proper channel, soldering, etc. Much faster. And people seem to like them a lot. But both are strong.

I go back and forth in what I make, use, and sell. Last one I made I gave to a soldier on her way to the Middle East. Stick tang, and I'm not worried about it breaking. My main knife when I went overseas was a full tang. Preferences, mostly.
 
I can't say that I have ever really had any trouble with the tangs breaking on my hidden tang knives. My SOG Bowie is still just fine after a decade of pretty hard use, and my old issue survival knife is still going strong but the hammer pommel is a little crooked now...after several years of abuse. My Buck 119 broke in the middle of the blade so no tang problem there either, and I never broke any of my old Case hunting knives. However...full tangs still just give me more confidence in the over-all strength on the knife. Maybe it is purely psychological but I like the extra confidence.
 
Hidden tangs are today associated with cheap Chinese knives that tend to break off at the tang during use. I beleive the blades are made out of zinc. It is much safer for a knifemaker to go with full exposed tangs to avoid the stigma of cheapness. If coldness is an issue, the knife user can wear mittens.
 
I wonder if the reason why modern advice (over the last 30yrs) says that a full tang is better is because of those cheap, horrible, "survival" knives of the 1980's. Where the blade was just bolted to the handle and hence the reports that full tang knives are superior because they don't break at the handle.

Perhaps the fashion for knives being built ever "stronger and tougher" influences the vast majority of knife buyers perceptions. 5mm + thick blades are becoming more and more common.

Watching knives cut concrete and then holding a puuko with a rat tail tang would make people question the scandi for its toughness. Its got a relatively thin blade and isn't full tang, this makes them think "it must be weak and prone to failure".

Apart from the custom makers and a handful of mass producers, it seems that most companies only offer modern "tactical" (whatever that means?) looking knives, no natural materials are used in their construction at all.

IMGP0371.jpg

I love my Kellam Wolverine!

Interesting thread and sorry for babbling on.
 
wildmike said:
Hidden tang knives when done properly can have considerable advantages. Especialy in arctic environments (as in the puukko and leukko knives) since they dont transmit cold to the hand.

Another traditional knife which uses the hidden tang and is specificaly designed for HEAVY use is the kukri. Properly forged and done there is very little chance of a failure at the tang. In fact I have yet to see one fail though I guess a few folks have been able to break those blades It has taken a herculean effort to do so.

The design is sound enough that Himalayan Imports actualy guarantees their handles for life.

I think we here in the good ol USA have just gotten stuck on the slab tang and it's greater percieved strength, and have overlooked a couple thopusand years of knife design. The percieved weakness of the hidden tangs in our eyes may be due to the tendency of some manufacturers to improperly produce the transition area of the blade which causes a weak point prone to breakage. This is a problem not of an intrinsicaly bad design but of improper manufacturing techniques used by some unscrupulous manufacturers. News of their products failures makes others leary of the desogn itself.
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I agree with EVERYTHING you said, thanks for saving me some typing!:D
I have been moving back to my puukko's of late, and they are in fact perfect in use...I cut with my knives, not abuse them. I bet that they could take quite a bit of abuse before breaking non the less, although I dont want to break them, I love them. I did ALOT of carving last week at work, and my old Javenpaa did it all, that and a draw knife. Overall, by the end of the week, I wondered why I own anything but Puukko's...light, sharp, easy to take care of, pleasing to MY eye, overall...just good ol steel.
I used my knife so much, my hand was frozen in the grip position...easily 16 + hours of use over 3 days...and the edge was still very sharp...and this was on Spanish Cedar...a medium wood. Cant beat that. And my H.I. hidden tang can take a serious beating.
i like full tangs, but I admit, they look a bit Amatuer to me now.
 
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