Are we too pre-occupied with full tang blades?

One the things that has not been discussed at this point is the fact that the exposed tang leaves a large area for moisture or other liquids to get into and cause the tang to rust. This problem is discussed in the book by Wayne Goddard, the Fifty Dollar Knife Shop. There are manafacture who are now putting coatings on the blades that may help address this, but it still leaves a large area of metal exposed to the weather and other corosive liquids.
Ray hit the nail on the head as far as makers and the market goes. The hidden tang and guard are ALOT more work. However the market does not recognize this and does not want to pay for the extra time invovled, plus the market is leaning towards the full tang.
Sigguy also nailed it that many years ago good steel was rare, so it was used for the blade, not the handle.
Interesting enough, ABS still requires test knives to be hidden tang and survive the 90 degree bend test. I have heard of ABS smiths making knives like this that they did multiple 90 degree bends on and the knife survived to be straighted over and over again.
As far as I know, there are no manafactures that make knives that survive the 90 degree test, let alone with a hidden tang. I would think that the market here on this forum would want a knife that could survive being bent 90 with out breaking. And remember in the test the knives are bent using a long "cheater" bar, so this really does exceed what you could do with your bare hands.
Are we to pre-occupied with full tangs? I think there are advantages to the WELL-BUILT hidden tang, but the market leans to the full tang, and they are easier and cheaper to build.
 
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My two favorite knives are both. My Camp Tramp is hidden tang, and my NWA Woodsman is full tang. I love both.
My goto knives of late have been a Ranger RD9 (full tang), and my NWA Muskrat (also full tang).
As a user first, collector second, I value function first, form second, so I'm pretty comfortable with either hidden tang
or full tang as long as it works for me and does the task that I need it to do.
Full tang gives me the psychological assurance of strength, but is cold in the hands, so I either wear gloves or tape the handles.
Hidden tang knives like my golok, khukuri or kabar army are all work horses for me, and I've been unable to break them.
Don't have a problem using them, whether I'm out in the bush, or in my back yard.
 
charlieridge said:
One the things that has not been discussed at this point is the fact that the exposed tang leaves a large area for moisture or other liquids to get into and cause the tang to rust. This problem is discussed in the book by Wayne Goddard, the Fifty Dollar Knife Shop. There are manafacture who are now putting coatings on the blades that may help address this, but it still leaves a large area of metal exposed to the weather and other corosive liquids.
Ray hit the nail on the head as far as makers and the market goes. The hidden tang and guard are ALOT more work. However the market does not recognize this and does not want to pay for the extra time invovled, plus the market is leaning towards the full tang.
Sigguy also nailed it that many years ago good steel was rare, so it was used for the blade, not the handle.
Interesting enough, ABS still requires test knives to be hidden tang and survive the 90 degree bend test. I have heard of ABS smiths making knives like this that they did multiple 90 degree bends on and the knife survived to be straighted over and over again.
As far as I know, there are no manafactures that make knives that survive the 90 degree test, let alone with a hidden tang. I would think that the market here on this forum would want a knife that could survive being bent 90 with out breaking. And remember in the test the knives are bent using a long "cheater" bar, so this really does exceed what you could do with your bare hands.
Are we to pre-occupied with full tangs? I think there are advantages to the WELL-BUILT hidden tang, but the market leans to the full tang, and they are easier and cheaper to build.
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Lots of good stuff Mark.

Also thanks everyone for their thoughts and inputs. While the thread did not reverse my position on the hidden tang, it certainly reinforced some of my thoughts and gave me a great deal of argument ammo.

I sincerely hope that those who have been reading this thread take it unto themselves to call to question posters in General and other sub-forums who question the integrity of a knife simply because it isn't full tang.

I sincerely hope that maker's aren't afraid to make gorgeous hidden tang blades nor post them on W&SS under the caveat that you tell us how they were designed to meet wilderness and survival challenge.

Thanks folks....
 
A well executed full-tang blade should be able to take heavier use without nudging.
That being said, I've hammered my Small straight Kabar USMC into a tree, up to the guard, and it did fine. I also always use it as a throwing knife; it takes on the task readily...
 
I guess I would like to add that it would sure be helpful if the manufacture could make it clear just how long the hidden tangs are. I have often looked at hidden tang knives and wondered how much tang was hidden. Maybe for non knife nuts, it doesn't matter.:)

I have drilled a few of my Mora's and put a pin through the tang.
 
I used a magnet to check , the tang on this one ends at the last pin .

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And this one is .200 thick stock (5mm) , no worries about fragility ! :D

1234,,,,,,,:)
 
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Stick Tangs are great.IMHO a stick tang handle can be made more comfortable than a full tang one :) They're also just as strong as the full tang ones :thumbup:
 
Yorkshire Boy said:
I wonder if the reason why modern advice (over the last 30yrs) says that a full tang is better is because of those cheap, horrible, "survival" knives of the 1980's. Where the blade was just bolted to the handle and hence the reports that full tang knives are superior because they don't break at the handle.
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That is part of it.

Another is that the term "full tang" can mean different things. The more common definition these days is the one used in this thread, a tang that is basically the handle of the knife with slabs or cord wrap added for a better grip or better looks.

Before the internet knife communities the term "full tang" more often also referred to a hidden tang that went the length of the handle. It was common for people to ask if a knife they were looking at was "full tang" while if the tang was exposed it would be obvious. Some people still use the term in this sense today.

When Lynn Thompson was promoting full tang knives since the 1980s, he mostly was referring to stick tangs that were wide and went the length of the handle, stopping at the pommel or just after the lanyard hole.
 
charlieridge said:
As far as I know, there are no manafactures that make knives that survive the 90 degree test, let alone with a hidden tang. I would think that the market here on this forum would want a knife that could survive being bent 90 with out breaking. And remember in the test the knives are bent using a long "cheater" bar, so this really does exceed what you could do with your bare hands.
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Really? No manufacturers at all?


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That's a Scrap Yard Dogfather (a hidden tang knife) being bent a whole lot more than 90 degrees. Many other Busse family blades, of various sizes, have undergone similar tests. Those are simply the ones I'm familiar with - I'm willing to bet there are more out there.
 
There is a successful knife maker that goes to one of our local gun shows once a month to sell his creations.

He ONLY makes hunting knives, knives to be used. He makes some of each, exposed and hidden. According to him (not me - don't personalize this) the carriers and occasional campers pretty much want full tang. The hunters and users all want hidden.

With the hidden tangs he can really go to town sculpting the handles. I prefer my hidden tang knives for the reason most hunters do, and that is less area to rust when covered with guts while processing, the more traditional look of the knife, and the easy cleanup with the only nook in the knife at the hilt. And if it's soldered on, not even there.

He also told me that during hunting season (frequently rainy down here) his clients don't like having a knife where the exposed butt will rust while riding in the sheath. We all know to carry an oily rag around and wipe the blade, but what if you use the knife enough to get off the last of the oil? This wouldn't be an issue if he used stainless, but he makes 95% of his knives out of 1095.

He solders and pins the hilts on his hidden tang hunters, and they are big sellers for him. You can literally clean them with a dry rag and get them spotless. No worries of the nasties that stay alive and growing on damp, foggy hunting days since there are no handle joints on slabs for crap to hide.

He still sells a fair amount of full tang blades though, and he attributes it to the market. He loves those, because as was mentioned above, the are much easier for him. He gets the same price, so why not?

Personally, I haven't ever relied on a poor quality knife for anything, so sticking with the better commercial knives, I have never had a hidden tang failure, all the way back to my Schrade Uncle Henry Golden Spike. I buy a knife based on an identifiable steel and feel in the hand.

But as far as exposed tangs go, that doesn't mean I don't own a couple pieces of sharpened bar stock with CNC micarta handles that I like a lot, though. :D

Robert
 
Another factor could be experience with kitchen knives. Some of the better ones like Henkles, and even the mid-end types in stores are full tang, and many people have had the experience of breaking kitchen knives with short hidden tangs. I broke a cheap one when cutting steak and the tang was maybe an inch long.

Still another factor when it comes to survival is that some choices are made under the assumption that there will never be any rescue or re-supply, and the knife has to last for life. Some instructors/writers teach or write from this perspective. Someone with different goals might have other preferences.

While a hidden tang can be strong enough, a full tang made to the same quality should be stronger since more metal with the same type, quality, and heat treat should be stronger.

I do a lot with my CS Recon Tanto even though I have more expensive customs and semi-customs, and never feel like it would let me down. I prefer it over a full tang in the winter since the rubber handle is more comfortable than a cold tang.
 
As far as whether I think a hidden tang blade is tough enough to take into the woods with me... HECK YES! Generally more comfortable handles and lighter weight to boot.

I'm not at all worried that any of these will fail...

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raylaconico said:
I've had times when I had a hidden tang knife for sale and a potential buyer asks, "Is that a full tang?". I tell them, "no" and I never hear back from them again. This makes me think that I just lost a sale because it wasn't a full tang. I just spent all that extra time and effort to make a nice hidden tang knife when I could have sold it faster, made it faster, easier, and the same price if it had a full exposed tang.
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You simply need words.Guys years ago came up with terms like " full tang construction"

You need a jingle like " Laconico's concealed tactical bushcrafters tang":eek:

Triple your prices,use a rabid owl for a mascot and you'll have an entire cult on your hands.:p
 
I have no issues either way- and when I do make a hidden tang it sells fine.

I honestly find handle shaping to be more versatile on full tang knives, but I'm not afraid to grind on the tang with the handle scales attached.

If I had a mill, hidden tangs would be easier than full tangs, but as it stands it's quite a bit of hand filing.

I don't really see a huge strength difference, but I try and take good care of my shoulder transitions, as do most makers who I've talked to about it.

Full tangs are easier to adapt to use if you have a handle breakage, hidden tangs are generally harder to seriously break he handle on.
 
I do like hidden tang knives when done right. I just had my trusty Kabar fail on me while processing some fire wood. I was batoning through some hard seasoned wood and the blade just snapped. I think if the tang were a bit wider and maybe a nice radius at the 90 degree angles it might have survived. I think the next gen Kabar might have a bit thicker stock than the originals. I finished the firewood job up with my NMSFNO, no problems there :D

I hate seeing good blades break
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I'd like to see a on piece version of the trusty Kabar design.
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WOW I have never seen a Ka-Bar break and I have seen some dues do crazy stuff with them.
 
I started to take a bend a little while into it, although I'd like to add that I used this knife maybe half a dozen other times to do the same task maybe not as hard of wood. I love this design for an all around knife, I would really like to see one made from a solid billet of steel and with a full tang.
 
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