Arkansas stones differences

JM2

JM2

Basic Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
2,189
When I was a kid I had a smiths kit much like this case kit shown. It had a soft and a hard stone. The soft stone was a gray with black marks on it like the middle stone shown. The hard was very hard and polished a very keen edge onto carbon steel. I lost those stones when my house burnt.

The new case stones shown here with an unknown origin stone that came off eBay. This unknown stone is the same as I remember the soft smiths stone I had, in color and in results on the knife.

Case soft, unknown(soft), case hard


My question is, why is that unknown stone different than the new soft stone? They sharpen differently with the darker on producing a finer edge. Is it that new stones just aren’t as good because the deposits are being depleted? Or did case just use the cheapest cut of stone they could get? Has the grading changed in the last 30 years?


Secondly the small hard stone shown is not nearly as fine as the hard stone I had. It is probably courser than the dark stone shown. Why is this?

I also have some dans stones, and it seems they follow this same trend.
 
Last edited:
Is the unknown stone the left one?
My experience is that the Dan's and Case soft stones are finished too finely to cut well. You need to rough it up with some SiC powder.
The small stone on the right looks to be a hard Arkansas, but not translucent or black. Looks can be deceiving with novaculite, but from what is sold, it looks that way. If it lets light from a modern flashlight through, it's a translucent. There is a lot of color variation in natural stones.
The modern hard stones aren't finishers if you need a fine shaving finish.
If you want a fine finish, get a Dan's translucent or black. The black is finer, but not by a huge amount. It's not worth having both.
There is certainly a lot of novaculite, it's a question of people with mining skills bothering to actually get it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM2
Thanks for the replies. The unknown is in the center. It has a couple potholes in it I need to lap out. If I avoid hitting them with the tip, they aren’t an issue.

I’ll have to get the dans out. I also have some smiths stones but not like the ones I had.
 
As Arkansas stones are natural stones even two stones of the same maufacturer can be (quite) different. Other than manmade stones. Those can be produced in the same way. Arkansas stones will always have a "grit range". They are classified by densitiy. If you have a look at Dan's Stone Grade 101: A Hard Arkansas is somewhere between 2.30 and 2.45 specific gravity. And has a related grit size about 800 to 1.000. From my experience there was not a huge difference (sharpness and grinding pattern) between a Soft and a Hard stone.
If I would buy Arkansas stones again, I would buy a coarse manmade stone (SiC or AlOx) and a Hard and (Hard) Black. But not the Soft stone. Not because it was bad. But it is too fine and slow for setting the bevel.
I had two Soft stones. One was more aggressive than the other. Both were from Preyda. You can be lucky and get the stone you need. Or or fine coarse stone. Or a coarse fine stone. And the stone's surface finish will play a huge role as I was told.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JM2
That makes sense. Thanks. While I’ve used Arkansas stones since I was a kid, I never thought much about it.
 
JM2 said:
When I was a kid I had a smiths kit much like this case kit shown. It had a soft and a hard stone. The soft stone was a gray with black marks on it like the middle stone shown. The hard was very hard and polished a very keen edge onto carbon steel. I lost those stones when my house burnt.

The new case stones shown here with an unknown origin stone that came off eBay. This unknown stone is the same as I remember the soft smiths stone I had, in color and in results on the knife.

Case soft, unknown(soft), case hard


My question is, why is that unknown stone different than the new soft stone? They sharpen differently with the darker on producing a finer edge. Is it that new stones just aren’t as good because the deposits are being depleted? Or did case just use the cheapest cut of stone they could get? Has the grading changed in the last 30 years?


Secondly the small hard stone shown is not nearly as fine as the hard stone I had. It is probably courser than the dark stone shown. Why is this?

I also have some dans stones, and it seems they follow this same trend.
Click to expand...
There is no industry standard on what manufactures call their stones. There are softs that are very close to what others might grade as a hard and hards that are closer to what others might grade as soft. It seems to be dependent on the stone that they were mining at the time.
If you go back far enough in time there was no market for soft arks at all. It was just the hard arks, meaning at the time translucent and black. Then the softs became available and then regular hards or medium.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM2
garry3 said:
There is no industry standard on what manufactures call their stones. There are softs that are very close to what others might grade as a hard and hards that are closer to what others might grade as soft. It seems to be dependent on the stone that they were mining at the time.
If you go back far enough in time there was no market for soft arks at all. It was just the hard arks, meaning at the time translucent and black. Then the softs became available and then regular hards or medium.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that tidbit.
 
I got a proper picture of all my Arkansas stones together.

The smiths kit I bought after my house burnt 7 years ago. It was either unused or very lightly used. The plastic case was all busted up.

The case kit is modern. As is the dans.

And the unknown stone, it came from eBay some years back. Now, that stones color is the same as the smiths bench stone I had before the fire. When I purchased the new to me smiths kit, I was surprised that the soft stone was different. This dark grey and black stone produces an edge that is finer and more polished than the soft stones I have, and I think a little finer than the hard case stone, but not as fine as the translucent I have.

Case soft, hard. Dans soft. Unknown. Smiths hard translucent, soft bench stone.


I didn’t realize the smiths “hard” is actually a translucent. I think that the previous smiths stone I had was a translucent too.
 
JM2 said:
I got a proper picture of all my Arkansas stones together.

The smiths kit I bought after my house burnt 7 years ago. It was either unused or very lightly used. The plastic case was all busted up.

The case kit is modern. As is the dans.

And the unknown stone, it came from eBay some years back. Now, that stones color is the same as the smiths bench stone I had before the fire. When I purchased the new to me smiths kit, I was surprised that the soft stone was different. This dark grey and black stone produces an edge that is finer and more polished than the soft stones I have, and I think a little finer than the hard case stone, but not as fine as the translucent I have.

Case soft, hard. Dans soft. Unknown. Smiths hard translucent, soft bench stone.


I didn’t realize the smiths “hard” is actually a translucent. I think that the previous smiths stone I had was a translucent too.
Click to expand...
I have had a couple of those type of Smith's. Lacking a better term I call them semi translucent. My experience with them is they are in the same class as the black and other translucent stones if given the same kind of surface prep.

I dropped one of them so am down to just this one. I think I bought it new in the 70's. It's a combo married to a soft that is pretty much worthless. For reason's I don't fully understand mine have been very fast arks for their hardness. In fact this example is faster than the soft it is married to. It never seems to glaze over so much that it stops cutting.

They were white at one time. This one has had a soak in simple green and is less yellow now. It would probably return to white given a long enough soak that would probably take months.




Dan's and Smith's were the manufactures of Buck and Case stones. I think Dan's had Case and Smith's had Buck but I might have that backwards.
 
Dan's Whetstone has a chart showing the differences between various Arkansas stones.

Stone Grades

And some other good information, too.

Novaculite 101


Edit: Just to be clear, I don't have any connection with Dan's Whetstone.
 
Last edited:
I would have guessed dans made Cases stones.

I am learning what I can about stones, their care and use, and history.

I learned I can take my aluminum oxide sander belt and reface the stones or remove sharp corners for easy holding. I did some of the ones I had before that I got used. And I rounded the corners of the dans pictured.

That grey and black stone, anyone got any idea on it? What makes it different? We’re they uncommon or special?

It makes the best edge of them all, on both stainless and carbon. I dropped it too and busted a corner. Dagnabit.

I forgot to mention, I think it’s heavier than a similar sized soft stone. But I don’t have another to weigh.
 
Last edited:
I'm not a big fan of soft arks, even when I get a really good one which to me is a softer faster stone. I don't dislike them there are just better options with natural stones in the same range that the softs work.

It's pretty easy to check their density (specific gravity) using the water displacement method.

Take the dry weight of the stone first, then zero a container of water on a scale, suspend the stone in the water using a thin string and record the weight. Obviously with out the stone touching any part of the container.
Dry weight divided by displaced water equal the SPG.
 
Thank you for describing the water displacement method to measure the specific gravity.
I have some problems to unterstand your instructions 100%. English is a foreign language for me. Sorry for aksing further questions.
What about the water level? Full to the brim? Or with enough space so that the stone won't make the water overflow? Using a string to suspend the stone means the stone floating in the water?
How do I measure the displaced water? Is this just the zeroed container of water + suspended stone on the scale?
Thanks.
 
Papilio said:
Thank you for describing the water displacement method to measure the specific gravity.
I have some problems to unterstand your instructions 100%. English is a foreign language for me. Sorry for aksing further questions.
What about the water level? Full to the brim? Or with enough space so that the stone won't make the water overflow? Using a string to suspend the stone means the stone floating in the water?
How do I measure the displaced water? Is this just the zeroed container of water + suspended stone on the scale?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Here is a thread about it on another forum. They articulate it better than I could and there are pictures. The only thing they got wrong is that it is not necessary to use the metric system any system will work.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/specific-gravity-of-whetstones.59567/

They do what I call the dry weigh different but it doesn't matter we end up in the same place for these purposes.
 
They used to also have the Washita stone; a good all round Arkansas stone. The vein ran out on the Washita now you have the Soft, hard, surgical black etc.

I was lucky enough in the early 1980's to pick up one of the last Smith's Washita stones, 8" x 3" x 1" thick in a cedar box. Cost me about $35.00 but I wouldn't take that for it.
 
sceva said:
They used to also have the Washita stone; a good all round Arkansas stone. The vein ran out on the Washita now you have the Soft, hard, surgical black etc.

I was lucky enough in the early 1980's to pick up one of the last Smith's Washita stones, 8" x 3" x 1" thick in a cedar box. Cost me about $35.00 but I wouldn't take that for it.
Click to expand...
Im not sure if it’s a “true” washita, however I just ordered and received a washita from dans whetstones. They say limited availability.
 
I would imagine that if Dans says it is washita it probably is. There is still Washita around; just not as much and often not in the larger sizes. It used to be that washita was the go to stone in the Buck, Case kits etc but now they, I believe, use Soft Arkansas as it is more readily available.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top