Arkansas Stones on Super Steels

B

BrandonColonel

Joined
Aug 26, 2016
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I'm looking into buying a set of natural stones from a custom sharpening stone maker. He makes Dakota Creek, Bethesda, and others. How well do natural stones work on super steels such as S35VN, Elmax, S30V, and D2?
 
They will abrade the softer steel matrix but not cut the harder vanadium carbides, so you will get a toothy edge (comprised of carbide chunks) and more risk of carbide tear-out.

If you set your initial bevel on diamonds or CBN, which will shape and sharpen the carbides themselves, and switch to Arkies for finer stages they will do some burnishing and edge polishing, but personally I would rather use a firm strop loaded with fine CBN or diamond compound or spray as a finishing step.

I own and use Arkansas stones but I stick to the types of steel that were common when Arkansas stones were in their prime- fine grained carbons and low carbide stainless.
 
So if I start my edge with my ceramics that I already have and switch to these later, I should be fine for the sharpening/polishing stages? I prefer to have a stone finish over a strop finish myself. I would be getting a stone starting at about 500 grit comparatively with a second at about 2,000 comparatively. I would then be finishing on my existing Naniwa water stone. If I go up the grits in my ceramics that I've been using so far, should these be decent finishing stones before my Naniwa?
 
So if I start my edge with my ceramics that I already have and switch to these later, I should be fine for the sharpening/polishing stages? I prefer to have a stone finish over a strop finish myself. I would be getting a stone starting at about 500 grit comparatively with a second at about 2,000 comparatively. I would then be finishing on my existing Naniwa water stone. If I go up the grits in my ceramics that I've been using so far, should these be decent finishing stones before my Naniwa?
 
BrandonColonel said:
So if I start my edge with my ceramics that I already have and switch to these later, I should be fine for the sharpening/polishing stages? I prefer to have a stone finish over a strop finish myself. I would be getting a stone starting at about 500 grit comparatively with a second at about 2,000 comparatively. I would then be finishing on my existing Naniwa water stone. If I go up the grits in my ceramics that I've been using so far, should these be decent finishing stones before my Naniwa?
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Why? that sounds like a waste of time AND money.
 
Any of the carbides in the super steels will be ~2X-3.5X as hard as the hardest mineral abrasive in the Arkansas stones, i.e., 'novaculite'. They'd have no chance at abrading or shaping the carbides in the super steels. The stones might manage to abrade the matrix steel (excluding the hard carbides) for a little while, until the steels' carbides effectively burnish, polish and glaze over the stones' abrasive. Then, the stones will get extremely slow, even on simpler, lower-carbide steels, unless or until the stone's surface is lapped & reconditioned, which would have to be done very frequently, to keep them working.

In a nutshell, it'd be a waste of time & money spent on the new Ark stones, to use them on the super steels. As mentioned, Arkansas stones are at their best when used on simpler carbon and low-alloy stainless steels, like 1095, CV, 420HC, 440A and equivalents. A pleasure to use on those, but very slow and very frustrating on most anything else with any wear resistance. I've had trouble with even 440C on Arkansas stones; so, anything beyond that is big trouble for them, and I wouldn't even consider using them for such steels.


David
 
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I have Arkansas stones as well as Shapton. I don't waste time using the Arkasas on the CPM3V & CPM20CV knives that I make. I have them for simple carbon steel knives I run into from time to time.
 
S35, S30V and D2 are not super steels. They have vanadium in their mix but are no where close to S90V, S60V, V110, ect.. Arkansas stones with work will polish some on the steels you mention but some other stones would do better. Think ceramic. DM
 
I don't think you're going to get hardly anywhere using arkansas stones on those steels listed.
I'll throw this out there for reference...
Just finished a small neck knife in 115W8 63HRC (NOT a super steel by any means...just a wear resistant carbon steel with Tungsten carbides providing the WR). I had planned on setting the bevel with a Crystolon, then refine with an India, then polish with a Translucent Arkansas. The Crystolon did well (silicon carbide). Set bevel with coarse side, refined on the fine side....very sharp and aggressive...bites right into fingernail. Went to the India stone (aluminum oxide). Tried to get more refinement...but the stone actually did nothing...in fact the bite was no longer there...would not pass fingernail test well (sort of). Got it OK, moved to the Translucent Arkansas...and it did nothing. Went backwards in sharpness, I'm afraid. After getting frustrated, drug out the DMT Fine, and got the keenness and aggressiveness back where I wanted it. All sharpening done with fixed angle control. Some stones just don't work well on some steels. It's best to match the stone to the steel, and the super steels (with their high tungsten or vanadium carbide %) will not be the ideal choice for a nice, clean apex.
And it's not so much how hard the carbide is...but rather how much carbide is in the steel matrix. 115W8 doesn't have a high carbide % by any means, but they are hard carbides, and the 63 hardness will give some stones like alox and naturals a run for their money in forming a sharp keen apex.
 
samuraistuart said:
I don't think you're going to get hardly anywhere using arkansas stones on those steels listed.
I'll throw this out there for reference...
Just finished a small neck knife in 115W8 63HRC (NOT a super steel by any means...just a wear resistant carbon steel with Tungsten carbides providing the WR). I had planned on setting the bevel with a Crystolon, then refine with an India, then polish with a Translucent Arkansas. The Crystolon did well (silicon carbide). Set bevel with coarse side, refined on the fine side....very sharp and aggressive...bites right into fingernail. Went to the India stone (aluminum oxide). Tried to get more refinement...but the stone actually did nothing...in fact the bite was no longer there...would not pass fingernail test well (sort of). Got it OK, moved to the Translucent Arkansas...and it did nothing. Went backwards in sharpness, I'm afraid. After getting frustrated, drug out the DMT Fine, and got the keenness and aggressiveness back where I wanted it. All sharpening done with fixed angle control. Some stones just don't work well on some steels. It's best to match the stone to the steel, and the super steels (with their high tungsten or vanadium carbide %) will not be the ideal choice for a nice, clean apex.
And it's not so much how hard the carbide is...but rather how much carbide is in the steel matrix. 115W8 doesn't have a high carbide % by any means, but they are hard carbides, and the 63 hardness will give some stones like alox and naturals a run for their money in forming a sharp keen apex.
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It's easy to see in most cases but heavily debated around here for some reason. For me, I found it pretty simple to understand by looking at a material hardness chart.

The third chart down kinda clears up where things stand.
https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sciences_html/Abrasive_Grit_Grading_Systems.htm
 
Here is a chunk out of one of my posts in another thread (was easiest to copy the photos so I took some text with it. I am talking about A2 but it applies to the steels you mentioned. I could dig up an augment to the contrary but the exception is when one is willing to cut grooves in the hard Ark stone . . . at a minimum that would entail scratching it up with a very coarse diamond plate or tile saw. waste of time / stick to diamond plates for the really super steels but the ones you listed can be sharpened on high quality man made stones designed to be used on your steel alloys:

natural stones and no problems with supersteels.
In emgineering they said any abrasive works, you might just need a bit more of some.
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Moving on here is a photo of what an A-2 blade does to a very high quality translucent Arkansas stone. The blade had been sharpened to hair whittling on a series of Shapton Pro stones but had some slight, super thin, foily, wire edge and I was just attempting to take that off on the hard Ark. I tend to jig sharpen these blades with exclusively an edge trailing method unless I am hogging off a lot of metal on diamond plates then I go both directions. On the hard Ark I was using a sharpening jig and going both directions because the stone was so wear resistant that I knew I would not be taking the stone out of flat.





There was absolutely no sharpening effect other than, perhaps, a slight burnishing effect which was the opposite of what I wanted since part of the reason I had this wire edge was the burnishing / extruding effect of my edge trailing technique on the other stones.

I know there was no sharpening going on because I looked very closely at the pores of the stone with a hand held microscope; shown. There was no black metal imbedded in the stone. With the same sharpening of 1095 there is a good deal of black swarf left on the stone easily detectable even to the naked eye.



When I began, the stone was pretty much brand new and matt looking to the eye. In a matter of a couple of minutes the stone had been . . . basically . . . polished / burnished by the A-2 blade. I had trouble photographing the surface but from the photos you can see that since I used the whole surface of the stone . . . in the end . . . the whole surface of the stone was made shiny and ineffective for sharpening basic high carbon steels like 1095.

After the photos I refreshed the surface of the hard Ark with my diamond plate.

Lesson learned. Stick to Shaptons for the A-2

Any natural stone works for the high alloy steels ? ? ? ?
Nah dude, nah.
Maybe they mean the same abrasive material in a friable man made matrix but not a stone quarried .
 
Jason,

Thanks! :thumbup:

On that chart, Boron Carbide is only slightly harder than Vanadium Carbide.
Is this same material as CBN? If so, then it's not going to be very effective against Vanadium Carbide.
:confused:
 
Chris "Anagarika";17009199 said:
Jason,

Thanks! :thumbup:

On that chart, Boron Carbide is only slightly harder than Vanadium Carbide.
Is this same material as CBN? If so, then it's not going to be very effective against Vanadium Carbide.
:confused:
Click to expand...

CBN (Cubic Boron Nitride) is above 4000, usually listed at around ~ 4500 Knoop on charts referencing diamond at 7000 (as per the earlier referenced Pella chart). CBN's not listed on the chart referenced, but it's quite a bit harder than vanadium carbide (~ 2600-2800 Knoop).

And, pertaining to the OP's Arkansas stones (novaculite), they're at ~ 825 Knoop hardness, for perspective.


David
 
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Thanks guys. Looks like I'm going with the Shun water stone instead. A little more expensive, and not quite the polishing effect seeing as I'd be going for a lower grit, but I know it'll work. I mean, the company uses super steels in their knives.
 
Nooooooo, don't buy that!

Shun doesn't make waterstones they pay a company to make value waterstones for them, rebrand it and mark up the cost to make profit!

If you need polish over anything else get one of the Naniwa superstone series in the grit that fits in your setup, they now call them the "sharpening series".

They are really good at polishing for the price if that's all you want.
 
there are better coarse stones too


look at these brands and series

Shapton Pro
Naniwa Professional
Shapton Glass
Suehiro Cerax
JKI Gesshin stones


better value and performance.

I don't normally tell someone not to buy something but there are a few things in the knife community that are marketed to cash grab on new guys since they have brand power.
 
I have both of the Shun water stones (300/1000 and 1000/6000). They are not bad per se, just overpriced for what you get. Shun doesn't make them. They are made by someone else for them (which is true of most knife companies who sell a branded water stone.) In fact, when comparing them side by side, it is clear that the same company did not make both stones. The sizes, composition, and even the rubber base holder are all different. I bought them at about the same time from a major Shun retailer so no question about their authenticity.

Both benefited from use of a flattening plate before initial use to get a good working surface. They are also a bit undersized at a little over 7.25" x2.5", versus the 8" x 3" size that is more typical of full-sized water stones.

I would suggest either the Suehiro Cerax Combo 1K/3K or the Imanishi Two Sided 1K/6K Stone for about $55 each over either of the two Shun stones that run about $80 each.

For that matter, there are decent King combo water stones that are probably similar to the Shuns for a lower price, if you want to shop around.

That is not to say the Shun stones suck. They don't. They work, and you can sharpen your knives with them. They are typical short-soakers, about 10 - 15 mins is enough, and take about 2 days to a week to fully dry out again after use. The 1000/6000 is an interesting stone. It is *almost* splash and go, and is not really thirsty. 5 minute soak, and ready to go. The 1000 side is a rather aggressive and fast cutter (which is not a bad thing). Not much mud. The 6K side seems a bit coarser than I expect for 6K, maybe more like 3k-4k to me. No mud at all. Also, fully dry in a couple of days.

The 300/1k is a different beast. Soak for 15 mins, a bit thirstier when using, muddier, took almost a full week to dry out after use. It also feels like a different binder. Not quite the same size, and a different rubber base. All of which combine to make me think it's from a completely different maker.

Why did I buy them, you may ask? I was curious about the brand, and I got an excellent deal on them due to seasonal sales promotions a while back and living near an outlet store for a big retailer. I think I got them close to dealer cost. I would NOT have paid the normal retail price for those stones!
 
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I actually have a Naniwa 8,000 grit super stone. I've been looking for a quality set of bench stones from start to finish. I settled for more on the polishing side because Arkansas stones don't go low enough to hog off steel from dull or damaged knives. And I could get a two sided stone for around $80. A lot of the Naniwa I would have to pay $80 per grit stone. I truly want the ceramic benchstone I saw on sharpeningsupplies.com. but it is far too expensive for me at the moment. Now, as far as the Shuns go, have you had first hand experience with them?
 
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