Art knives

First of all, let me say that I have no idea what an "Art Knife" is. A knife-buddy of mine whose interests run along decidedly "tactical" lines, once picked up a carbon steel, wood-handled bowie from my collection and proclaimed it to be "a real nice art knife". This did not help me gain any insight into the term.

As for the co-exitence of aesthetic appeal and functional excellence, this quote from Andrew Jordan's web site (www.jordanknives.com) sums it up rather nicely:

"Don't make something if it is not useful; but if it is both necessary and useful, don't hesitate to make it beautiful, as long as the decorative elements are an inherent part of the design and don't interfere with function."

I tend to prefer knives that fall more along the "presentation grade" side of things. That is, while they must all be fuctional knives for their given type (hunter, bowie, camp knife etc.) there has clearly been an effort on the part of the maker, through design, materials and possibly (but not necessarily) through decorative embellishment, to make the knives beautiful.

Having said that,I applaud the effort or makers who do produce very high-end and elaborate pieces, to also offer simple, highly fuctional and relatively inexpensive knives that are ready for hard and regualr use. Ed Caffrey's EBK line and Burt Foster's "blue collar" knives come to mind as examples. There are others.

Cheers,

Roger
 
As a resident of Europe with an interest in collecting large forged blades I must deal with the harsh reality, that unless I have an exceptionally good and acceptable excuse for carrying any knife other than a 3" Slip joint I will lose it.

Therefore my collection stands on its aesthetic and artistic merits rather than its arse kicking ability. When I buy or commission a piece the overall flow and visual appeal is the first thing I look at. I will assess its visual balance before its mechanical balance. I also focus on uniqueness, and very often in the large forged knife market this uniquess is derived from the combinations of materials and embellishments, as well as the design.

So for me the artistic side is important, but this is more in the area of inlays, engraving, file work , and damascus patterns, rather than intricate carvings and inlayed jewels. I do not think of my bowies and hunters as art knives, but rather presentation pieces as Roger has said. I do have and covert a couple of simple but elegant bowies that are amongst my favourite of all pieces irrespective of price or embellishment , this is because it just all comes together, shape, balaance, materials, finish, so perfectly.

Having said all this, despite the fact that 90% of my collection will never cut anything more than the hairs on my arm, for me to really to appreciate all the artistry I must have an assurance that the piece comes from a maker who has a track record for making true hard working, clean cutting, sharp as hell blades - without that they are just an expensive letter opener.

Stephen
 
Yes you can make a profit with a plain unadorned knife but at that level the competition is intense and the self gratification with the work you are doing is minimal. All it takes to sell against an unadorned knife is to add a little bit of dressing up which takes no extra materials just a little time and the knife looks better than the competition. Well you can see where it goes from here.....if a little bit of adornment increases salability then why not do a little more?

As for satisfaction, it can get pretty boring making the same style of knife all the time when you know that you can do better more interesting work. I think every knifemaker makes the odd "art" piece just for the personal satisfaction it brings, darn few make only "art" knives. Even that can be boring after a while.

One of the reasons I make so many styles of knives is that I enjoy the variety though I must admit I enjoy making bowie knives most of all. When I sell one to a collector who announces that it will be placed in a display cabinet and never used I am a little disappointed because I know that collector will never truly appreciate just how well that knife was designed and built. At the same time I am proud to be selected to build a knife for his collection.

To answer the first question "why is art important", there is no answer to that except that the marketplace appreciates the amount of workmanship that goes into anything.
 
2knife said:
Why is "art" important to knives?
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It is the artistry that attracts me to custom knives. Production knives will do anything I need a knife to do, but for the most part they are humdrum. They lack the appeal that knives made by true artists have.

Over the years I have seen hundreds of quite basic knives that are in my eyes truly artistic. They are made by a master of his/her craft and are set apart from the average. The balanced lines and feel of these knives makes them special and their quality is immediately apparent.

To me, a custom knife without the art would just be another knife, and one that would not interest me in the least.
 
2knife said:
Although, sometimes I don't find some of the artistic elements as necessary as other people do. (damascus blades, engravings, filework...)
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These are not necessary, but they add to the visual impact the knife has. The embellishments that you mention are subjective improvements that some will like and others won't. I love pattern welded steel and artistic treatments of guards, ferrules and pomels. Engraving, carving, scrimshaw and filework are embellishments that I can take or leave. They work for me on some knives and on others they leave me cold. Each person must judge for themselves what they think is an important element that goes into making a knive desirable.
 
Visual impact can be as simple as a pleasing combination of blade and handle colour or texture. I made kitchen knives with exotic wood handles, they didn't sell, replaced the exotic wooden handles with polished black micarta, they sold. The contrast between the mirror finished blade and the black micarta was dramatic and caught the public's attention.

Many times it is as simple as a pleasing selection of complimentary colours or textures in natural materials or a tiny added detail to compliment the design.

It is easy to over do the embellishment and end up with tacky.
 
george tichbourne said:
Many times it is as simple as a pleasing selection of complimentary colours or textures in natural materials or a tiny added detail to compliment the design.

It is easy to over do the embellishment and end up with tacky.
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I agree, but one person's tacky is another person's beautiful. I have seen knives that I consider to be way over the line as far as embellishments are concerned, but these knives obviously hold appeal for many people otherwise you wouldn't see so many of them. There are many knives that sacrifice functionality for art and that's just fine. These knives are not my cup of tea, but I am usually impressed by the workmanship and imagination that goes into them.

The great thing about custom knives is that you can have them the way you like them. Knife designs are only limited by the imagination of the people making them, and from what I have seen that imagination is limitless. I think the world of knives would be a lot less interesting if it didn't contain those way out there art knives. Love 'em or hate 'em, they always make a lasting impression.
 
If you can look at a knife and see the look on the makers face when they are telling you all about it, you know that he has put a bit of his heart and soul into it. This in my mind is art, weather it is a knife, a painting, or anything that is made by hand.
I think the making of an "art" knife, or anything outside the makers normal work, is very important, it allows the maker to let his imagination expand and shows him what he can truely acheive. Wether this results in a saleable item, is sometimes not as important as actually creating something that is satisfying for the maker.
Just my thoughts.
Doug
 
I was trying to think of a working definition of "Art Knife" as I was trying to go to sleep last night. :)

An art knife is one which the maker creates with the intention it be appreciated as a work of art, with utility of little, or no importance.



OK, just for Roger, I am editing my definition. :)


An art knife is one which the maker creates with the intention it be appreciated as a work of art, with utility of secondary importance.
 
Megalobyte said:
I was trying to think of a working definition of "Art Knife" as I was trying to go to sleep last night. :)

An art knife is one which the maker creates with the intention it be appreciated as a work of art, with utility of little, or no importance.
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IF that is the definition, then I don't own any art knives and have no desire to own any.

But

Roger
 
Now Roger, of course you do. Let me ask you this, your Bradshaw bowie, you know, the one with the walrus ivory handle, the thin S guard with the delicate blueing, and the inlays of precious metals everywhere, the multi-bar damascus blade, so, when did you last use it? Do you really think Bailey ever imagined or intended it would be a user, did you buy it thinking you would use it? If you did, you're a nut. :)

I submit, that is an art knife, it was made primarily as a work of art, and was bought as such. Can you really say I'm wrong?

In my definition, I said utility was of little or no importance, I didn't say the knife couldn't be capable of being used, but it's a matter of intention and priorities, the knife is intended as a work of art, and is purchased as such, and the main priority, was thus that it fullfill that goal, namely to appeal to us for it's aesthetic beauty and workmanship, and not as much, for it's utility. Bailey makes lots of knives that are intended to be users, and are bought to use, this aint one of them Roger.
 
Ari,

I agree with you in part, and agree with Roger in part. Being a maker and not a collector, I may have a different approach. Every knife I make is functional first. Be it a high art piece with lots of gold and ivory and carving, or a simple hunter. I tested Rogers knife for it's cutting ability and edge holding the same as a "user" piece. It's balance is right for it's size, and the handle is shaped to provide a comfortable and functional grip. Whether it is used or not, doesn't really matter. What matters is that the package is a functional, well constructed knife with embelishments that do not interfere with the performance of the knife, but create a knife that is an artistic expression.

I don't know if all makers have the form follows function ideal, but to me it is of absolute importance.

In contrast, if I could afford an $100k Fabbri O/U shotgun with Fracassi engraving, I would shoot it as often as possible. I have no problem with my customers doing the same with a $2k bowie knife if it suits them.
 
Well, to paraphrase Richard Dawson: "Good answer...good answer..." :)

But Bailey, let's assume you are the exception for a moment, surely you are aware of knives that were made for art's sake first, then utility second, I can flood this post with pics of such knives, from most of the great makers, folders and fixed blades alike, that are way too fancy to have ever been created with using paramount in the maker's mind..

I know it's always a good idea for any maker to say their knives are always form follows function, because that is part of what attracts people to knives, despite the fact the buyer never intends to use it, in a sense, part of what makes it a great piece of "Knife Art" is that it can be used effectively, it may have even been tested for cutting, but I know that many, or even most of the very ornate, very fancy/expensive knives out there were not made, nor bought with using in mind.
 
Ari,

What you said originally said:

“ An art knife is one which the maker creates with the intention it be appreciated as a work of art, with utility of little, or no importance.”

What Bailey said:

“ Every knife I make is functional first. Be it a high art piece with lots of gold and ivory and carving, or a simple hunter. I tested Rogers knife for it's cutting ability and edge holding the same as a "user" piece. It's balance is right for it's size, and the handle is shaped to provide a comfortable and functional grip. Whether it is used or not, doesn't really matter. What matters is that the package is a functional, well constructed knife with embelishments that do not interfere with the performance of the knife, but create a knife that is an artistic expression.”

Like I said, not an art knife by your definition. I have little to add to Bailey’s eloquent statement above, save to reiterate that I would not by any knife that was constructed with the utility of “little or no importance”.

I would still like to hear a working definition of an art knife. Since the knives in my collection are almost exclusively bowies, and have a range of embellishment from none to lots, maybe someone could point out where the line is that separates a primarily functional piece, from one that becomes primarily described as an “art” knife.

Consider the following magically transforming bowie:

1) 10” carbon steel blade, no guard, micarta handle.
2) Now add a steel double-guard, maple handle. Plain leather sheath.
3) Now change the handle material to fancy burl wood – say, amboyna for example.
4) Now change the guard to an S-guard, add a ferrule and butt cap.
5) Now blue the fittings, and add a fancy tooled sheath with exotic skin inlay and frog blued to match the fittings.
6) Now change the blade to random damascus.
7) Now change the handle material to an awesome piece of mammoth or walrus ivory.
8) Now add some engraving and gold inlay to those fittings.
9) Now change the blade to a complex mosaic damascus pattern, and add silver throat and tip to that sheath, and what the heck – engrave and gold-inlay the throat and tip to match the fittings of the knife.

And let’s say that the knife at step 9 cuts as well as the knife at step 1.

Lots of people would describe the step 8 knife as an “art” knife. But does it become at art knife at any point before? And if so, why?

Cheers,

Roger
 
I would add that I can’t speak for all makers any more than Bailey can. But I will say that the makers with whom I have worked closely take the performance of their knives VERY seriously, whether they be plain or fancy. It’s a matter of professional pride. The fact that they realize that their most fancy and most costly knives will likely never see hard use (or use of any kind) does not mean that the treat performance as being of diminished importance. Even an “art” knife, for them, must first and foremost be a knife.

Cheers,

Roger
 
It doesn't help this discussion that all of you are right.
My thought on the matter is this. Anytime a object is elevated above the mundane, sameness, of it's surroundings it becomes a candidate. Simple, complex; plain or ornate; each of them have a way of reaching above its brethren and carying the craft to the next level. A simple carbon steel bowie will many times outshine it's very ornate fellows. A clean slip-joint folder can sometimes be more pleasing than a over engraved jewel encrusted genious lock folder. Or not.
It has been said by more eloquent folks than me. Knives are like women, and dogs, and horses and guns; it goes on forever. We know what we like; we may not know for sure why we like it better than the others; but we still do.
A shy girl putting up hay in jeans and boots or a Park Avenue lady in an expensive gown out on the town. each have their champions who will fight to the death for them. Class as well as art is everywhere; and hard to nail down; but we know it when we see it.
Not me though; but I would like to get there. Recognizing art that is.
mike
 
This is fun, and I respect that Bailey makes sure all of his knives, regardless of how fancy they are, are capable of being used effectively, but, there is one question I have. How effectively?

It seems to me that based on the very laws of physics, each time you make a knife fancier, you are moving towards art, and away from pure utility, to at least some degree, depending on the change, because ultimately, pure utility and pure art are diametrically opposed concepts, the fancier something gets, the less utilitarian it becomes.

Think about it, here is an example. Roger's Bradshaw bowie. Bailey, or Roger, or both, doesn't matter, chose fossil walrus ivory for the handle. There is no doubt, this knife would be stronger, and more durable, in other words, more utilitarian, if instead of the ivory, micarta, or even plain, old polymer were used for the handle, after all, fossil ivory is much more fragile than many alternative synthetic materials, can shrink, crack over time etc.

But, here, on this knife, the decision was made to choose a more aesthetically pleasing, ie. fancier material over one that would make the knife slightly more capable, more utilitarian, but, the ivory was still chosen, it cannot be said it was chosen because it makes the knife stronger, we know that simply is not true, in fact, the reverse is true, so, why was that less utilitarian material chosen, one which, even in a small way, nevertheless, lessens the overall strength, utility of the knife, for what? Well, the sake of aesthetics, ie., art.

I am not saying that Bailey cannot make a bowie as fancy as Rogers that is well made, tested, and very capable, what I am saying though is, take 2 of Bailey's knives, one like Roger's, and one designed and created soley to function as perfectly as a knife can, without regard to aesthetics, well, you will have 2 different knives, one will be a knife that has sacrificed a certain measure of utility and strength for art, the other will be a fairly plain looking knife that is more capable than the fancy one. I really don't see how it can be any other way, sure, Bailey can make a fancy knife that still cuts well, but, based on what I have said above, the fancier the knife, all else being equal, the less capable it becomes, and on those knives where art is a consideration, you are sacrificing at least some function, for the sake of form, ie. art.
 
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