Art knives

one thing for sure..............they are certainly nice to look at!!!



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Ari,

it is beyond meaningful debate that fossil ivory is less durable than linen micarta. But are you suggesting that ANY compromise in function for the sake of aesthetics is the new definition of an "art knife". If so, by this shifting standard, then I have to change my answer to say that ALL my knives are art knives as none of them have micarta handles, but rather wood, stag, pearl and ivory.

Or put another way - every time a maker selects a natural handle material, is he rendering utility "of secondary importance" - to use the second definition that you had advanced?

Cheers,

Roger
 
Megalobyte said:
It seems to me that based on the very laws of physics, each time you make a knife fancier, you are moving towards art, and away from pure utility, to at least some degree, depending on the change, because ultimately, pure utility and pure art are diametrically opposed concepts, the fancier something gets, the less utilitarian it becomes.
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I don't think the laws of physics have anything to do with it. You can have a plain, simple knife and you can have the same knife with engraving, scrimshaw and pattern welded guard and fittings and the two knives should perform exactly the same. Making a knife fancier will not necessarily affect its functionality. When two knives are the same except for adornment, about the only thing that might really affect functionality is a carved handle, and this could just as easily improve utilty as take away from it. I guess that changing from regular to pattern welded steel could also affect the functionality, but depending on the steels chosen, you could see a loss, no change or an improvement by doing this.
 
Ari

This is a very good discussion. Good points from everyone.

What really glares at me is this, and I think this was the original question...What is an "Art Knife"? Difficult to give a specific answer since it is in the eye of the beholder. Some say almost any Loveless or Moran is an art piece based on their design elements as well as stature in the knife industry.

I tend to think of an art knife as one that has an artistic expression. A desired effect was the attained goal by it's maker using methods deliberately intended to make the knife special. A specific design that proves itself above and beyond it's current peers :IE a significant advancement in the field, can be considered "Art" for doing so. Technical art if you will, but I don't think this is what many makers shoot for in making an art knife.

I like historical references because they are generaly accepted for the description bestowed on them. From the likes of a Joseph Rogers disply piece to the Imensely ornate sword awarded to General Grant that now hangs in the Smithsonian, they were all functional pieces before they were adorned with cultural significant artwork.

I do agree that some embelishments and materials are not as functional as a high performance synthetic, but IMO all should be seviceable examples of the style they represent. I think CPM3V outperforms any steel I have ever used, but I don't make every knife out of it, and I don't consider this a sacrifice in useability any more than useing an ivory handle.

My art pieces have a specific theme, incorporating an appropriate design to get the expression I desire for the piece. I don't consider a typical damascus blade and fancy handle an art piece based solely on the materials. The piece needs to transcend the ordinary and give some view of the makers (Artist's) intended delivery. Show some sort of feeling or referrence a historical theme or represent a cultural style. Most of the pieces I see are desired to look elegant and refined. Some are more specific with a theme such as dragons, nudes or scenes engraved on them. I could go on and on.

I will leave you with a pic of one of my own (shameless as it may be)
 
When many people think of art knives they think of those very flamboyant designs that are quite often more art than knife. The purists quite often look down their noses at these knives thinking of them as nothing more than wall hangers/display pieces. In fact, that is exactly what they are and that is a large part of the appeal they hold for the people that love and collect them.

Personally, I don't find these knives to be of my liking, but I can appreciate the temendous talent and fertile imagination that goes into their creation, and I can understand what it is that people see in them.

My own personal preference is for traditional styles with high grade materials and not for embellishments such as engraving, carving, scrimshaw, etc. However, my tastes have been changing over the years and who knows what knives I will fall in lust with in the future.

None of the things that goes into making a knife fancier will make it better at doing what a knife is supposed to do. If all you are looking for is a working knife at the best price then don't go for the extras. That's the great thing about custom knives, we can all get what we are looking for. Except for those that are looking for a top quality custom for under a hundred bucks. :)
 
I think Bailey and Mike have hit on the problem of defining "art knives" - it's the same problem as trying to define "art" - it will be different things to different people.

Bailey's definition is pretty close to my idea of an art knife.

Keith - didn't we used to call those way-out flamboyant designs "fantasy knives" back in the day?

Cheers,

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Keith - didn't we used to call those way-out flamboyant designs "fantasy knives" back in the day?
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In many cases, yes. There are many knives that are very flamboyant that would not be classified as fantasy knives though. Some of the knives of Buster Warenski and Lloyd hale are excellent examples of this.
 
You have asked some very thought provoking questions. That is good for the little grey cells.

In my view the future for custom knives is will be defined by those makers that are willing to push the limits. We are not in for a future filled with high performance fantasy knives (I have never seen a true fantasy knife that I would refer to as high performance). The boundries will be expanded on all fronts. Simple, straightforward working knives will still be the backbone of the industry and they will get better and better. Art knives will continue to flourish and as the abilities of makers gets better we will see even more impressive high end, high art knives.

The simple working knife will not disappear.
 
Here are a few - all of which represent VERY basic bladeware by makers who are certainly capable of extremely ornate high-end "art" knives:

Nick Wheeler (pic from bladegallery.com):

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Ed Caffrey (pic from caffreyknives.net) Okay, minus the wire inlay, this one is pretty basic:

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Burt Foster (pic from burtfoster.com):

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Tim Hancock (pic from nordicknives.com):

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I hereby proclaim that reports of the death of the basic working untilty / hunter have been greatly exaggerated :D

Roger
 
As a maker I feel the term "Art Knife" gets used on a lot of knives that are both pleasing to the eye yet very functional.If you are basing the toughness of the handle material as a difference between art and function then I don't know what to say other than a piece of stabilized Ivory is just as strong as anything I have ever put on a knife.Heck wood can shrink and crack with age also,I have also seen micarta all chewed up and broke loose from pins after being abused which is what it takes to hurt most all natural handle material.The fancyier a knife gets does not mean that the blade or handle material have been second guessed in any way,On my knives the blade gets the same forging and heat treatment no matter if it is a dressed up blade or a cut down utility piece.You can read this here in a review of one of my EDS Models,which is fully dressed out with filework and a framed handle construction with horn scales and delicate looking half penny guard.
http://www.beknivessite2.homestead....ife" gender.. Just my 2 cents worth.. Bruce
 
http://www.beknivessite2.homestead.com/files/EDS_Review.htm
Here is a picture of the knife in the review.
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There ya go Bruce...the / goes after the [

I always thought that the art knife was more of the knifemaker strutting his stuff. Multiple grinds, filework, carved handles all are additional skill sets that go beyond making a functional blade.

Whether it gets used or not is up to the owner.
The conundrum is that with all the extra work (all that showing off ;) ) the price has to go up and that pushes the knife closer to an investment and further away from tool.
That line lays at different levels for different folks.
 
Thanks Wally,My BRAIN aint working anymore I think I have finally fried it :D Guess I better start getting on here more often.Now with a computer in the shop I believe I can.

I also think you are correct in that the ART KNIFE is more of the maker showing what he knows and not just the everyday stuff.
Bruce
 
I can't resist responding to this thread with some cheap tongue in cheek humor.

All of my knives are "Art Knives" ;)
 
I agree with 2knife. I visited Randall knives last week and saw a bunch of Scagels in their museum. You wouldn't call them "art" if you defined "art" by Blade magazine's or some people on this forum's standards. The "I love damascus, ivory, gold, pearl, mokume, engraving, western accents etc." crowd would probably consider Scagel's work somewhat plain. There certainly was no damascus, no hamon lines, no engraving. Somewhat crude stamps, some with no stamps. The knives are made from relatively simple materials, mostly what can be found in any rural area, forged by hand and ground using a single gasoline motor for power. However, in my eyes, there is definitely art in his work's simplicity and fine attention to functional detail along with a good eye for color and texture. Each piece is similar yet different and unique. Currently, there is nothing being made now that appears comparable to his work. When you see a bunch of Scagel's work together, it's hard not to decide the man is more than a craftsman but an artist.
 
The "I love damascus, ivory, gold, pearl, mokume, engraving, western accents etc." crowd would probably consider Scagel's work somewhat plain.

I'm in that crowd (as well as a few other crowds) and have never seen a Scagel or Scagel style that I did not consider a piece of art. In my "book" making a plain utilitarian knife with lines that flow is as much of an art as making a highly embelished knife. I don't see them as plain or simple. Just made in such a way to create the illusion of plainness/simplicity. When you take time to really examine and think about what might come across as plain or simple at first look the art becomes much more clear.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
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