As requested- spheroidizing and other such

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Larrin was interested in what I may have on spheroidal annealing and similar treatments so I thought I would risk inflicting even more metallurgical yakity yak on anyone interested instead of an e-mail or other venue. So here is what I have on the subject in excerpts from talks and Power Point presentations I have made.

Annealing becomes necessary whenever we need to the steel to be a soft or stress free as possible for the purpose of machining, forming or to avoid distortion in subsequent heat treatments. With steel there are typically two types of annealing available- Full or “lamellar” annealing and spheroidizing.
Picture1.jpg


Full annealing is also referred as lamellar annealing because it results in pearlite which is a lamellar segregation of iron and carbon (ferrite and cementite for those more particular). The treatment involves heating entirely above the point where all carbon will be into solution and forms austenite, and total recrystalization will occur, then the steel is slow cooled to below 900F. from around 1200F to 1000F. In the cooling process the steel will form pearlite. The slower the cooling the coarser the pearlite will be due to the wider spacing of the iron and carbide lamellae, as longer times allow for greater distance of travel for the carbon.

This type of anneal works best for simple steels that have .8% carbon or less. If the steel has in excess of .8% then this anneal is note best move because not only will it have a more difficult time dealing with the carbide, the slow cooling can allow the carbide to segregate into the grain boundaries.

For more complex steels, and those of higher carbon content, a spheroidal anneal is often a better method. In this treatment the current crystals/grains are left alone since it is sub-critical and no recrystalization occurs. Instead the carbon balls up into round globs in a softer carbon depleted ferrite. With course pearlite machining can be touchy because it is like pushing a bar though a random pile of plates, while machining spheroidal cementite is like pushing a bar through a pile of ball bearings. But the carbon does stay out of the grain boundaries. Basically on the way up to austenite carbon tends to ball up, on the way down it tends to make sheets. Steels at or below .8% C can be spheroidized but they just wont form big obvious spheres, and it can be more trouble than it is worth.

Spheroidizing has some down sides. If you are not holding soak times now, you won’t like your steel spheroidized as it takes much longer for the carbon to go into solution, spheres tend to be very stable structures and the carbon has farther to travel, while the lamellae of pearlite dissolves rather quickly unless it is quite coarse.

Spheroidizing can be done in one of several ways. The steel can be heated around 20-40 degrees above the lower critical (say 1335F for this conversation, so from 1350f to 1375F) and held there for around an hour before cooling no more than 50F per hour until it is below 1000F. Or it can be soaked for at least an hour just below lower critical. Or it can also be cycled just above and just below lower critical several times. At any rate if you heat above non-magnetic you will have lost control of your spheroidizing.

Here are some more of my annoying micrographs to show what I am talking about:

Picture3.jpg


This is full annealed 1095. You can see that the reason why pearlite gets it’s name is how it resembles mother of pearl, but you can also see the pure white carbide in the grain boundaries, very brittle stuff and rather hard to get rid of in just one or two low temperature heats.

Picture2.jpg

This is spheroidized steel, you can see a huge difference from the pearlite above and there will be no heavy carbide in the grain boundaries, they are some there but you can’t see them; as it should be.

Picture5.jpg


Here are two samples of 52100 taken from the same bar just one was full annealed and the other was spheroidized. Both were soaked and quenched from 1550F and formed martensite, in other words hardened (the tannish brown stuff in the background is martensite). But you can see that both have their issues. The lamellar sample still has grain boundary cementite which will leave it more brittle, but the spheroidal sample has much less of its carbide dissolved into the martensite. However the spheroidal sample would be in better shape with just a little more soak time, while the lamellar sample really needs some normalizing to break up that cementite and even things out.
 
Clearly your knowlege of metallurgy is far and away superior to most folks. Suffice to say that this waaay over my head. My question is this:

Is there an introductory book that you would recommend for the beginner knife maker? Something akin to the "for dummies" series of books:rolleyes:? I plan to begin with stock removal and HT. I just want to avoid making poor choices that will produce an inferior blade.

Thanks a million!

Edro
 
The pictures and graph are worth 1400000 words. Now I am understanding what you're saying, well at least I am beginning to understand. :)

Kevin, if noone else says it today, thank you for your continuing efforts in educating people like me :)
 
Kevin,

Right now I'm working with two steels, 1084 and O1. To apply this to those steels...

With the 1084, if I do a lamellar anneal I'll still end up with carbides that will make drilling and sawing a bit of a pain, right? I have attempted to anneal my stock after it stripped the teeth off my hacksaw blade, and I didn't notice much improvement. In fact, it might have been worse.

On the O1, which seems to typically come spheroidal annealed and precision ground: Is the spheroidal treatment why you recommend a little bit of a longer soak time for this steel? Or would O1 always require a longer soak to reach it's max hardness?

You mentioned normalizing to "fix" the effects of both lamellar annealing and spheroidal annealing. For these steels, is it necessary to normalize or thermal cycle them before the final heat/quench?

Just trying to apply this to my little area of experience... :)

Josh
 
Kevin, mind if I print off your starting post to put up in the garage I teach in? lots of good stuff in that, and it will really help clarify the arcane to the newbies if I have pictures and your explanation

-Page
 
Kevin,

As a mechanical engineer I love the way you endeavor to "educate the masses". I recently got a box full of old bearings from the local bearing shop. I will treat them as 52100 (pretty safe bet). The problem is I only have a coal forge. Is it possible in practice to apply this process without a forge with an accurate controller? Could you possibly give me a walkthrough for obtaining a hard yet tough blade (let's say up to 10-12") from receiving a piece of hardened material, though annealing, forging and hardening+tempering. I hear a lot about triple quench and tempering where one sings the highest praise, and others call BS.... theory vs practice is where I'm dropping the ball right now.

Thanks for your efforts!

Cheers Rody
 
Clearly your knowlege of metallurgy is far and away superior to most folks. Suffice to say that this waaay over my head. My question is this:

Is there an introductory book that you would recommend for the beginner knife maker? Something akin to the "for dummies" series of books:rolleyes:? I plan to begin with stock removal and HT. I just want to avoid making poor choices that will produce an inferior blade.

Thanks a million!

Edro

Superior to most folks... not really, I am actually just an regular metal mashing bladesmith who decided to look a little closer at the metal he was mashing, a few trips to the local library could get most folks to where I am at.

In another thread I recommended "Metallurgy Fundimentals" by Daniel Brandt to get a grasp on this egghead stuff, and if you are interested in the treatment afters stock removal "Tool Steels Simplified" by Luersson and Plamer is a wonderful book on practical applications of heat treatment. Others would recommend some popular books on how to get started with spare change, but you asked for knowledge and I feel I am giving you a head start by going right to serious applications that will be usefull for all the years you practice the craft.
 
The pictures and graph are worth 1400000 words. Now I am understanding what you're saying, well at least I am beginning to understand. :)

Kevin, if noone else says it today, thank you for your continuing efforts in educating people like me :)


No thanks necesarry, my reward is seeing the logic in action. :)
 
Kevin,

Right now I'm working with two steels, 1084 and O1. To apply this to those steels...

With the 1084, if I do a lamellar anneal I'll still end up with carbides that will make drilling and sawing a bit of a pain, right? I have attempted to anneal my stock after it stripped the teeth off my hacksaw blade, and I didn't notice much improvement. In fact, it might have been worse.

On the O1, which seems to typically come spheroidal annealed and precision ground: Is the spheroidal treatment why you recommend a little bit of a longer soak time for this steel? Or would O1 always require a longer soak to reach it's max hardness?

You mentioned normalizing to "fix" the effects of both lamellar annealing and spheroidal annealing. For these steels, is it necessary to normalize or thermal cycle them before the final heat/quench?

Just trying to apply this to my little area of experience... :)

Josh


Normalizing would only be necesarry in the lamellar sample above, the spehroidal is just fine, it only needs a little more soak t be a great piece of steel.

If a steel should be dead soft and is still ripping teeth off saws or sqeeking drill bits then you have clusters or sheets of carbide that is makig your life difficult. Thi is once again a prime example of scratch hardness versus penetrative hardness, but only here the Rockwell tester is telling you it is soft but your drill bit is telling the Rockwell tester it is full of #$%@!

When this happens you can tunr the steel purple as many times as you wnat and the problem will not get any better. You will need to break up those carbides. What has worked for me is to heat the steel up to a full quenching heat and then quench it to avoid any carbide precipitation on cooling (it can be in sluggish oil since the idea is not maximum hardness but just keeping the carbon where you want it), then reheating the blade to a red heat but still magnetic several times, do not go to non-magnetic or you will be back to square one.

O1 will also have alloying elements that will slow down the austenizing process, but the spehroidal condition is also an excelent reason to give O-1 a good soak.

Compared to O-1, 1084 will go into solution almost instantly.
 
Kevin, mind if I print off your starting post to put up in the garage I teach in? lots of good stuff in that, and it will really help clarify the arcane to the newbies if I have pictures and your explanation

-Page

Sure Page I know where to find you to collect any royalties or user fees when I need them;)
 
Kevin,

In order to get full benefit from the spheroidizing process, do you increase the soak time as the steels carbon and alloy content increases, or does the one hour rule stand for most steels above .8 percent carbon content?

I would like to say again, thank you for posting the accompanying pictures; it brings what you are teaching into focus, for many of us trying to learn.:thumbup:

Fred
 
Kevin,

As a mechanical engineer I love the way you endeavor to "educate the masses". I recently got a box full of old bearings from the local bearing shop. I will treat them as 52100 (pretty safe bet). The problem is I only have a coal forge. Is it possible in practice to apply this process without a forge with an accurate controller? Could you possibly give me a walkthrough for obtaining a hard yet tough blade (let's say up to 10-12") from receiving a piece of hardened material, though annealing, forging and hardening+tempering. I hear a lot about triple quench and tempering where one sings the highest praise, and others call BS.... theory vs practice is where I'm dropping the ball right now.

Thanks for your efforts!

Cheers Rody

Rody I will have to skim over it and heavily abridge things as your request covers a pretty wide landscape. On the triple quenching thing, if you ask you will get all kinds of testimonials. When I explain a process I like to give reasonable results with as much details as to how and why the process occurs in order to deliver those results, I feel it lends credibility. I think it is only reasonable to ask that of others as well. I can get interesting stories and poetic slogans anytime I care to tune into the current political campaigns. I guess I may be too pragmatic;).

All heat treating is is moving carbon around in iron and heat is your tools to move it. Where you put it will determine the results. You asked for hard and "tough", I like that as I also prefer hard and tough over ductility (soft) any day.

Those bearings will have an unknown heat treating history so you are already at a disadvantage, this is another reason by I rarely encourage the use of scrap steel for the best results. But you will be forging them so whatever is there will be a mess in short order anyhow (don't sweat it I am a hammer head myself so I like making messes;)). All steels have a recommended forging heat and there are reasons for this, but I will not dwell on them or this one post will fill the entire thread with numerous pages. Start out at that heat and move the metal. When you have large cross sections to reduce it is best done hot, this is not only easier on you arms, it will help break up and move segregated structures and homogenize the steel. As you get thinner and closer to finished shape and size you heats should naturally get cooler since you do not have to move things as much and you will not want to overheat the tip or the edge. This will also be great for refining the inside of the steel as well, but if you over do it and continuously cycle for no reason or too low you will begin to segregate things again. Know when to leave it alone. The best way to forge is with a few, well planned and controlled heats and no more than needed to accomplish what you want.

Normalizing is what I do next and the most important thing to remember is EVENESS, heat as evenly as possible and cool as evenly as possible.

With this steel any machining will be out of the question if it is not annealed and you can see from above what going lamellar will do. So I would go spheroidal. On your final normalizing heat, quench the blade. This will trap the carbon in solution and make spheroidizing easier. Heat the blade in the forge to red but still magnetic- never let that magnet stop sticking! Do this several times, and then air cool. It is not the best and a good machinist would curse you if he how to work with too much of your steel but it will get you by. Besides with a forge to heat treat in you DO NOT want total spheroidization with coarse spheres.

When it comes time to heat treat soak it the best you can with your forge. If you have ovens or other gadgets there can be problems with soaking 52100 too much. This is not a beginner's steel at all, and it may be the last commonly used steel that I would want if I didn't have the tools to control exactly how much carbon I moved around. If you put too much carbon into solution there will be problems with retained austenite and plate martensite. So for larger knives it is best to deprive the martensite of carbon beyond .7%- .8% and leave it in the form of residual carbides. But it would be best to make those carbides as fine and widely distributed as possible. This is best accomplished by setting things up for it in normalizing and then getting things done as precisely as possible in the hardening.

I wished I could be more enthusiastic and encouraging but you are working with one of the trickiest steels to make a larger blade out of with simple tools. What folks need to take note of is that many of the "interesting" recipes that smiths come up with start out with a steel that really wasn't intended to be worked with rudimentary tools. So you pick a steel you are not really equipped to treat and then proceed to do contortions trying to make it work. You won't see too many people doing the hokey pokey when heat treating 1084 or W2, they were made to be worked with the simplest of tools.
 
Kevin,

In order to get full benefit from the spheroidizing process, do you increase the soak time as the steels carbon and alloy content increases, or does the one hour rule stand for most steels above .8 percent carbon content?

I would like to say again, thank you for posting the accompanying pictures; it brings what you are teaching into focus, for many of us trying to learn.:thumbup:

Fred

Fred we are limited by our tools the most but time at temp will result in wider separation and larger spheroids. Making them any bigger than you need will only make more work in the hardening process. The method that goes above Ac1 and then holds for an hour doesn't seem to matter on the carbon content but like all heating applications is affected by cross section. The main idea with this operation is to render the carbide groups harmless to your tools by making a friendlier shape out of them. Regardless of the carbon level it will be nicer in spheres than in lamellae or plates. It is worth noting that a large advantage that industry finds in spheroidizing over a full anneal is the time saved. Time is much more important in the full anneal because proper solution and recrystalization is required.

By the way that grain boundary nastiness can be controlled by avoiding temperatures above Accm in higher carbon steels, if you don't put any more than .8% into solution there won't be that much left over from pearlite to cause you trouble. The problem we encounter is how does a guy with a, torch or forge manage to move just .8% carbon into solution while keeping the rest in a convenient resting place? Spheroidizing can be a lot easier in that sense.
 
I want to add my thanks to you Kevin. If not for you I would be swinging in the dark with my heat treatments. I appreciate the time and effort spent to help others understand what is actually happening in the steel. I for one am a believer in the physics of the world. I am so happy to learn more and know that when I work a piece of steel and it finally becomes a blade that the business part of the knife will be all that it can be. You have added so much to my understanding. Thanks again. Jim
 
Jim, it is why I never like real time internet chat. If I am going to chit chat just for the sake of talk I can do it much more efficiently here at home with my friends- and without typo's;) Forum type discussions have a very nice way of communicating while allowing a semi permanent record of the information exchanged. It is like a custom knife if it has to hang out ther with your name on it why not have it be really useful to the consumer as well. Some of our knives get set in a dark cabinet for years and are forgotten by the public, I like the ones that people get the most use from. If I am going to spend time on something I want it to be useful. Your appreciation is well received as evidence of that, even when I appear unappreciative of the compliments due to my loathing to be one more dime a dozen guru.
 
So in the pictures above, the 52100 that was fully annealed and quenched would seem just fine, but have these carbide? grain boundaries that would act like perforations under stress, and could also be difficult to sharpen and have keep a consistent edge?

And the spherodized, had it been soaked longer, would have been tougher and more consistent at the edge due to it's even distribution of small carbides?

I hope I am getting these right, I'm sure someone will point it out if not.:) Thanks for explaining what was in the pics Kevin. Thanks also for the time spent in writing this post. I have been wondering exactly what the spheroidal anneal was and why it was good and bad.
 
Carbides in grain boundaries , especially the 1095 photo, are very brittle .The fracture surface photo below shows not only fracture along grain boundaries but numerous fractures perpendicular to the fracture surface . This material is extremely brittle !![ I don't have identification of that photo] You don't want continuous grain boundary carbides !!....See www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511508
 
Thanks for the pictures, Kevin.
 
I wished I could be more enthusiastic and encouraging but you are working with one of the trickiest steels to make a larger blade out of with simple tools.

Kevin,

Thank you very much for your time and effort, it is much appreciated!
The reason I'm using used steel, and this one specifically, is twofold: It's not because I'm cheap or can't afford new steel.
Firstly it is extremely hard to find the steel you want here in Europe. I've been looking for 5160/1.7176/55cr6 (AISI/matnr/DIN) for weeks. Nobody has it or even knows it (even under the DIN name). Even springs shops don't carry it. 52100 is known (eq. 1.3505/100cr6) but I haven't been able to buy any stock yet. Some of the W/A/O alloys are available at knifesupply shops but I don't like being ripped off. I have no problems with paying an honest price, but I'm no fool (or at least I hope so ;-) ).

Secondly: I find there to be a measure of charm in transforming one existing object into another. There's a certain pride and wow-factor with turning a sword into a plow-share so to speak. I do realize this has its drawbacks.

I will attempt to put your advise to good use and keep you updated on the results. If you're willing, I AM interested in your thoughts on the forging temps of various steels and the reasoning behind them. If you wish to discuss them through PM, feel free.
BTW, Verhoeven's book on metallurgy for bladesmiths is available as a free, legal download:
http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

Thanks again and keep hammering!

Cheers Rody

ps through my job I have close contact with a heat treater. I will check if something can't be worked out. Would piggybacking on a batch of bearings (if they do them) give the desired results? I'm not sure how much they're targeted for toughness vs hardness....
 
Here's another photo of continuous grain boundary carbides !
 

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