As requested- spheroidizing and other such

Kevin, I have before heard tell that that type of cycling treatment is the best way to spheroidize with only a forge to heat treat with. What is your experience with the consitency of this method? How would a smith know if he was getting properly spheroidized carbides without a microscope? Do you recommend heating to the same red below magnetic and then into vermiculite for the end of this treatment? And the last question: Why don't smiths shell out the $1000 (or more) for a controlled furnace so they can be much more sure of what they are getting? I think the $1000 is worth the piece of mind, though being a college student I can definitely relate to those that do not have $1000.
 
Larrin said:
Kevin, I have before heard tell that that type of cycling treatment is the best way to spheroidize with only a forge to heat treat with. What is your experience with the consitency of this method? How would a smith know if he was getting properly spheroidized carbides without a microscope? Do you recommend heating to the same red below magnetic and then into vermiculite for the end of this treatment? And the last question: Why don't smiths shell out the $1000 (or more) for a controlled furnace so they can be much more sure of what they are getting? I think the $1000 is worth the piece of mind, though being a college student I can definitely relate to those that do not have $1000.
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The cycling and entirely below Ac1 methods are a littel more hit and miss, I peronally use the slightly above Ac1 and slow cool method for the maximum results, but this would nto be as practical for the guy with just a forge. First as you point out it would be difficult to do in the first place but the the required soak times for proper solution would be problematic later on. If you don't have to machine it the finer spheroidal carbide from the other two methods would be pretty good.

Vermiculite would really serve no purpose below 900F , all the real work is done from aroudn 1250F to just below 1000F, after that you could quench it of you wanted to with no real effect on the outcome. Indeed in order to save time, and thus money, isothermal annealing operations are often used in industry, where the steel is heated to one temperture, quickly cooled to another to accomplish the treatment and then cooled to ambient in order to get to back work.

I think you nailed it with the $1000 thing, there are gadgets that are $500 or less and could make my life much easier that I have put off buying because there is only so much money to go around. To some the ovens take too much of the tradition out of the bladesmithing for it to keep its appeal, I can understand that as well. Control freaks will not rest until they have tools that will allow them guide the process every step of the way, that would be guys like us, others get a bigger thrill from winging it and still avoiding disaster (imagine the rush when pulling a katana out of the water in one piece after sweating bullets as it went in). I think any and all will work if you are happy with the results you choose to go with. But the guys who complain that things are not working the way they want and still won't break open the checkbook to get the tools that will make it happen, perhaps they need to rethink things.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I think you nailed it with the $1000 thing, there are gadgets that are $500 or less and could make my life much easier that I have put off buying because there is only so much money to go around. To some the ovens take too much of the tradition out of the bladesmithing for it to keep its appeal, I can understand that as well. Control freaks will not rest until they have tools that will allow them guide the process every step of the way, that would be guys like us, others get a bigger thrill from winging it and still avoiding disaster (imagine the rush when pulling a katana out of the water in one piece after sweating bullets as it went in). I think any and all will work if you are happy with the results you choose to go with. But the guys who complain that things are not working the way they want and still won't break open the checkbook to get the tools that will make it happen, perhaps they need to rethink things.
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It's all about what level of control/disaster ratio each individual is willing to accept. I know I am saving my pennies for an oven:D.
 
I agree with Kevin.

I don't think the heat source is nearly as important as getting the temperatures and times right, and having control over the atmosphere. Those are the main things.

Some heat sources or equipment may make certain procedures "easier", and maybe even a little better, but there are always more than one way to skin a cat. The main thing is that you get the results you are looking for and working with steels, methods and tooling that you enjoy and find interesting...
 
i thought there was onley one way to skin a cat, grab cat and rip skin off :).
 
JTknives said:
i thought there was onley one way to skin a cat, grab cat and rip skin off :).
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I hate cats too!

I'll stick my neck out a little in hopes that it may help some of the others with just gas and solid fuels.

As Kevin has stated the purpose for annealing is to get the steel soft enough to do the stock reduction efficiently. Since I do my stock reduction primarily by hand with files, getting them soft is very important. However, I think that a little residual hardness isn't necessarily a bad thing. If they get too soft they can bend and become deformed in the stock reduction with certain blade geometries, methods of stock reduction, etc... which can be a problem sometimes. What I really don't want is hard and soft spots. It needs to be even and homogenous.

I have worked "air hardening steels" with just gas and/or charcoal, although I mostly work with simple steels. I find that I often have to improvise with some of the alloy steels. I do whatever I have to, to get them soft enough.

The techniques involve, multiple cycling, slow cooling from above critical and lowering the temperatures in subsequent cycles, to where in the last cycles, I am completely below critical,... tempering from a black heat. It can be a real pain and time consuming,… but it will work. There is some truth to sticking with the steels that best suit your shop set up, but this is not an absolute either.

If no one has a problem with my theory, then I don't mind getting into some specifics of tooling and technique.
 
In the old days there wasn't an electric furnace that would anneal air hardening steels easily and efficiently. At least not in my price range. I had and used one of the top of the line “Thermolynes“, but it was either on or off. Even back 20 years ago it was $4500. I still have it in storage but don't use it. Is there really a furnace toady for $1000 that has the type of controls we are talking about, that is any good? If so,... then it might be a great deal, depending where your head is at.

Choose your poison. :)
 
I want,... "The Oxy-Gon EC Series End Loading Tube Furnace" for Christmas! :D
 
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