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[G Clarke]

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[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, there is a huge difference, a steel works by cold working the edge, it deforms it and removes small amounts of metal by abrasion, it isn't a good thing. The edge is left weak and blunts rapidly. In contrast, a strop just acts similar to a stone of similar grit.

-Cliff

 

[G Clarke]

asdfg

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The light grooves essentially speed up the process if you use them light, if you press hard they will act like file. Steel on steel will cause wear, not a lot, probably a mix of adhesive plus abrasive, the action is mainly deformation driven though.

-Cliff

 

[Joe Dirt]

I never really understood the reason for steeling a knife vs. just sharpening it properly.

I don't know why kitchen knives sometimes come with a steeling rod.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You can steel really quickly, and they were around long before ceramic rods which do the same thing much more effectively because smooth steels leave edges highly deformed and weak whereas ceramic rods will actually sharpen them and remove the weakened metal.

-Cliff

 

[Mtn Hawk]

Cliff Stamp--

I have a DMT Diamond Steel (fine). My understanding is that this will realign the edge and remove weakened metal rather than realign the edge and leave weakened metal like a regular steel. Am I right about this?

...smooth steels leave edges highly deformed and weak whereas ceramic rods will actually sharpen them and remove the weakened metal.

I take this to mean that you think steeling is beneficial, only it should be done with ceramic and not steel. Will the Diamond Steel do the same thing as a Ceramic Steel or is it different in some way? I would like to use the best tool for the job, whatever it is.

Thanks a lot!

Joe Dirt--

I've always heard that proper steeling realigns the edge without removing useful metal. Sharpening removes metal. Steeling is used between sharpenings to save metal and extend the life of the blade.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes a diamond rod will act just like a stone and remove the metal along the edge. Yes, smooth steels were promoted for "saving" the knife because they could restore the sharpness without removing metal, this is true, however the edge retentionis very low in that condition and the rate of metal loss with a proper sharpening abrasive is *really* low.

-Cliff

 

[DGG]

Yes, there is a huge difference, a steel works by cold working the edge, it deforms it and removes small amounts of metal by abrasion, it isn't a good thing. The edge is left weak and blunts rapidly. In contrast, a strop just acts similar to a stone of similar grit.

-Cliff

Cliff, does this happen even with a steel that doesn't have those nasty grooves down the sides? The Edge Pro guy suggests using a plain steel as the last step as an allignment rather than a steel removal, as I understand it.

When you see they guy steeling the big chef's knife near the roast beef table as I understand it he isn't sharpening the blade but realligning the existing edge. I'm sure there is some minor amount of abrasion but I don't think he would be whacking off steel before cutting the next slice off the roast (to many steel filings in the meat).

http://www.chefdepot.net/knifesharpening2.htm

Thoughts?

 

[huugh]

Cliff - have you ever seen a butcher in work? He is steeling very often as it helps edge to last much longer
material at the edge is just realigned instead of resharpened (==removing material and creating "new" edge)

Yes, steeling removes material (VERY SLIGHTLY) as mankind doesn't know any material that wouldn't wear;
you would have to steel the knife for months to get result similiar to sharpening stone

(this applies to smooth steels, as I have no experience with steels with grooves or bumps)

 

[Mtn Hawk]

Cliff--

Thanks for your reply. I've always had my suspicions about steeling with a steel rod, even though it's a common practice. It never seemed logical that metal that is weak and thin enough to be rolled back or deformed in some way could simply be pushed back into place and last very long.

Just to be clear about what you are saying (as I've gone off on the wrong track before by misunderstanding something):

1. Are you saying that steeling with diamond or ceramic rods is basically not steeling at all but another form of sharpening? If so, could I just forget about the whole process of steeling and sharpen instead, such as on a Sharpmaker, or is there some benefit of steeling with a ceramic or diamond rod that I'm not aware of?

2. You advocate steeling, just not with a steel rod?

3. Do diamond rods perform the identical function as ceramic rods? Or is one better than the other?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions but I'd really like to understand this once and for all.

Thanks again!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

When you see they guy steeling the big chef's knife near the roast beef table as I understand it he isn't sharpening the blade but realligning the existing edge. I'm sure there is some minor amount of abrasion ...

Yes, the major influence on restoring the sharpness is deformation based, you can see this even under light magnification, x10 is easily enough.

It never seemed logical that metal that is weak and thin enough to be rolled back or deformed in some way could simply be pushed back into place and last very long.

That is it exactly, it will even relax back to dull if you don't use it.

Are you saying that steeling with diamond or ceramic rods is basically not steeling at all but another form of sharpening? If so, could I just forget about the whole process of steeling and sharpen instead, such as on a Sharpmaker, or is there some benefit of steeling with a ceramic or diamond rod that I'm not aware of?

Yes, yes, no.

2. You advocate steeling, just not with a steel rod?

I would use a suitable abrasive instead of just using deformation based honing, I use plain grooved steels generally only as files on soft kitchen knives, I rarely use the smooth ones except for edge retention comparisons to check the extent of deformation based dulling.

3. Do diamond rods perform the identical function as ceramic rods? Or is one better than the other?

Diamond rods are generally a really coarse grit, ceramic rods are usually many times finer, the DMT rod for example is way more coarse than the medium Sharpmaker rod. At the same grit they would act very similar.

Cliff - have you ever seen a butcher in work?

My family is (or was) fishmen, they do the same thing traditionally with fillet knives, it is mainly out of habit, a suitable abrasive would be just as fast and far more effective as the deformed metal isn't very strong so it is better to remove it than bend it back into shape. Most knives used by those guys are also really low end so they have to steel frequently to maintain a sharp knife, though the rate of steeling is influenced by the fact they are steeling as they are always using a highly weakened edge. With a properly honed edge on a decent steel you could cut meat all day long and never have to hone it in any way.

-Cliff

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I'm an advocate of smooth-steel steeling, in its place. Before I discuss that, I agree with most of Cliff's points. Yes, a steeled edge will be weaker ... but nevertheless, it often allows you to go longer between sharpenings.

So, when do I steel? I steel when I can't be bothered with sharpening. I sometimes don't want to go hunt down my strop, perhaps re-charge it with chromium or whatever I'm using for cutting, strop the knife, then wash the blade and start cutting. Steeling lets me grab the steel, which is conveniently kept with (say) my kitchen knives rather than with my sharpening kit in the garage, improve the edge and cut. Voila, done. Yes, a steeled edge is weaker than a sharpened edge, but for plenty of uses you can steel a bunch of times before having to sharpen, and if all you're looking to do is quickly be able to make some good cuts, it's the way to go.

ya, I could have used an abrasive stick instead of a smooth steel, but these are harder for most people to use, less tolerant of edge angle changes, and require washing the knife once you're done if you're going to cut food.

Now, given that I know I'm going to be in the kitchen all day, or in the field all day, or whatever, I'm definitely not going to steel my knife, I'm going to sharpen it and have a fresh edge ready.

 

[Jeff Clark]

A steel is easy to clean. I doubt that you will see a butcher cleaning and sanitizing either his knife or his steel before or after steeling. This is still not the greatest food sanitation procedure, but I bet it is typical. If the knife and the steel get cleaned occasionally they at least don't have a porous surface to retain bacteria. Other sharpening systems need to be kept cleaner to work well and to maintain even an illusion of sanitation.

In one of my knife blocks I keep a 12-inch fine ceramic "steel" and a 12-inch fine diamond "steel". Before I start cutting I feel my knife edge. If it feels just a tiny bit dull I may give it a couple licks on my clean ceramic steel then clean the blade again. If it feels significantly dull and I am in a huge hurry I may give the blade a few swipes on my diamond steel then on my ceramic steel. Usually I just grab one of the dozens of other sharp knives I have handy (on my kitchen counter I have two knife blocks, on the wall I have two knife racks, and I have 2 drawers full of knives under my kitchen counter). I also have another hundred or so knives in other locations as backup). I have 12-inch smooth steel "steel" in another block, but I only use than on carbon steel blades. The stainless blades are rather brittle for steeling.

I keep most of my sharpening equipment in the kitchen. I use a 1000-grit waterstone and a Sharpmaker almost every day. Typically I touch up a kitchen knife or two while my morning coffee brews.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If the knife and the steel get cleaned occasionally they at least don't have a porous surface to retain bacteria. Other sharpening systems need to be kept cleaner to work well and to maintain even an illusion of sanitation.

I doubt that bacteria live on a smooth ceramic a lot easier than a butcher steel which are the most common locally, in fact it is a *lot* easier to clean a ceramic rod than a fine butcher's steel. As the ceramic rod loads it will simply turn into a smooth steel, but it would take a long time for it to be that loaded.

You can use a smooth ceramic pretty much identical to a smooth steel. I think mainly they are often used out of habit, I have watched fisherman destroy the edge on high end knives by steeling, just did it without thinking after working through so much fish and the fine grooved steel under heavy pressure mangled the edge.

The diamond rods would be harder to clean, but you would never stop in the middle of processing food to sharpen anyway becaue it would never be necessary, unless you were using really low end knives, and in that case I'd likely just use a fine butchers steel as a file anyway.

-Cliff

 

[Mtn Hawk]

Cliff Stamp--

Thank you very much for your answers and for helping to take the mystery out of steeling. I've wondered about these things for quite awhile and am glad this thread came up. I called DMT today and asked about the difference between their Diamond Steel (I have a "fine", 25 micron) and Ceramic Steel (7 micron). They said that the diamond is more for general knife use and the ceramic is more for keeping a finer edge, which I took to mean sharper and more polished. I like a little toothiness on the edge and prefer to sharpen as quickly as possible so I'll stick with the Diamond Steel I already own.

For my purposes, Joe Talmadge's statement "I steel when I can't be bothered with sharpening", says it all.

 

[Meatcutter]

Hi all, I'm new to this forum and noticed this discusion on steeling. Well I just finished a 14 hour shift in the the meat works and I cut up about 6 tons of fresh beef, my knife is as razor sharp now as it was when I started this morning. All I used all day was a steel and never once used a ceramic rod or diamond "steel" as I find if its time to use one of them it's best to just go and resharpen the knife properly on the stone.
The steel I use is a Wm Gregory of Sheffield and is at least 120 years old, it has had all the rough lines & rust pitting removed and then etched with a acid treatment. I steel all of my knives wether they be carbon steel or stainless and it brings the edge back to razor sharpness, the edge does eventually weaken but surely you shouldn't have to resharpen the edge by removing metal each time you use the knife as you are doing with ceramic/diamond rods?
Look forward to talking more on the subject.
Are there any more meat workers out there on this forum?

 

[Gringogunsmith]

I've cleaned a hell of a lot of hogs and deer over the years.
I use a steel during those days, and for the kitchen junk.

Meatcutter..
Welcome and what are your favorite brands of butcher knives ?
A man slicing up 12,000 lbs in a shift...well.. I'll buy the ones you tell me to, that's for sure !

 

[Meatcutter]

I have tried many Knives in the 12 years I have worked in the meat works, my favorate knifes at the moment are DKINOX, which are a ice hardened blade made in Solingen with handles put on here in Australia. Many guys at work use Victorinox but I have found them to be a bit soft, as I can run the DKINOX a bit thinner and still hold up to heavy use without distortion or buckling of the blade. I don't mind F.Dick knives but find there is a bit much pitch in the blade (6 Inch boner) and get a sore rist with them.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... but surely you shouldn't have to resharpen the edge by removing metal each time you use the knife as you are doing with ceramic/diamond rods?.

The major source of blunting is deformation and a smooth steel with correct this by cold working the edge back into line, you can see this under even mild magnification directly. However it leaves this weakened metal on the edge and it will blunt much faster, and you can then again restore it with a smooth steel and keep this up until the edge cracks apart, and if you are cutting soft materials which induce little wear, and don't let the edge get too dull (the higher the deformation the more likely it will crack) this can go on for quite some time. A rod with an abrasive at a suitable grit, essentially the same one you finished at when sharpening, will not only align the edge, but actually cut all the weakened metal off, or at least a very great deal of it, leaving the edge very similar to a freshly honed state.

I am doing cardboard cutting now with a few blades, I blunt them down to where it takes about 30 times as much edge length to make a cut as optimal.That is fairly dull obviously, just a few percent of optimal, to restore them I can use one pass per side on a fine DMT rod. This edge will have *much* better edge retention than one which is smooth steeled, which also won't be able to get as sharp because cardboard will induce a lot of wear and even chipping. The difference is so lopsided that a steeled edge on a really high end steel will be outperformed by a sharpened edge on a fairly low end steel.

Alvin has made knives out of 1095 (66 HRC) and M2 (65 HRC) for meat cutters and talked about it on rec.knives. the 1095 blades don't do as well over the common stainless as is found on most work most likely due to the corrosion, the M2 blades were highly regarded. I am pretty sure those guys all used steels for the exact reason you mentioned, if you steel frequently you can keep the knife sharp for a very long time cutting meat. Local fisherman do the exact same thing with butcher steels while filleting fish.

-Cliff