Assistance Needed - Mayer Bros Clutch Issues

A

Augus7us

Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
694
Hey Guys,

Having issues with the clutch on my hammer. As you can see in the photo the clutch engages the shaft by pressing up against the "cone" with rubber or laminate wrapped around it. I've not heard of much on this and believe I read maybe one sentence on it in Richard Kern's book where he says they use linoleum.

Also evident in the photos is that the rubber the old fellow that owned it before me was using has come loose and now when I engage the clutch it wants to push the rubber out. From what I can tell he cut a strip of rubber and glued it to the cone. The glue has gave way and now the rubber wants to eject shortly after using it.

My thoughts are to baseball stitch the two ends of the rubber together and glue it back in there. Once in I will pull the threads tight and tie them off and let the glue set for a day or two.

I should note that I do not want to take it apart until I move to my new shop. I have no idea what it would entail and its not like normal little giants that have babits so it looks like it would be a bit more of a chore to get the shaft out. So any fixes will need to be integrated in its current configuration.

Do you guys have an better ideas for a temporary fix?

Thanks All!

-Clint





IMG_0447 by Clint, on Flickr
IMG_0448 by Clint, on Flickr
IMG_0449 by Clint, on Flickr
 
It's odd to me that they use rubber and not clutch material


The key to good gluing is good glue, good prep and proper clamping


I'd take it apart

Get a large band that can clamp

Blast the glue area

contact cement comes to mind.

Try Loctite Henkel = they have tech service for glues



Als try I forge Iron and somewhere else that may have specific experience with that hammmer.
 
How was the rubber working before it came loose? I mean was it grabby or? I think take it apart and sand blast the glue area and rough hand sand the rubber, or maybe go with leather or a synthetic if it's a pain to take apart. I know the rubber tire on my hammer works well as a clutch, but have never seen it on that type clutch.

BTW, got pics of the whole machine?
 
I'd never seen a cone clutch before. A quick google search shows that they were once pretty popular for a lot of applications, and are still used in race cars among other things. Who knew... When you get around to taking the clutch apart to do a proper job of fixing it you should be able to find a vendor for the proper friction clutch material in an appropriate cone shape.

Short term, it's going to be hard to create a proper glue line without taking it apart. I would contact Locktite as the Count suggested. They have some amazing super glues for rubber that you might be able to use
 
Count, I would definitely go through the motions and clean it up right before gluing it down but my shop time is limited right now and I'm trying to buy a house (with a new larger shop I don't have to rent!) so I'd rather just get it back to working and take it apart after I move. I am curious though, what do you consider proper clutch material for something like this? I'm going to re-read it but I want to say Kern's book on Little Giants says linoleum. I've posted photos and a few questions over on IFI some time back. Only one guy said really knew anything because he bought one that was disassembled and asked me for photos to help with putting his back together. That site seems to be dying a slow death...

Will, it works great when the rubber is glued down. Lots of control over speed and I can do single taps. I thought about using a different material but now that its popped out I don't see any wear on it and I would guess its been in there for some time. My big challenge for a temp fix is trying to clean that cone without taking it apart so the glue will hold until I move. I may have to find some large pipe cleaners or something I can coat with alcohol or dish soap.

I don't have any recent photos, this one is right after a friend and I man handled it into the shop on a cold winter day. I still had to put the bottom die in. I've since made new keys and de greased the frame a bit.

-Clint

PH2 by Clint, on Flickr
 
Thanks Mahoney didn't see your reply. Do you guys think that would work better than epoxy? I've had pretty good luck with epoxy tests (West Systems) on different material but if a quick fix is just a matter of getting a better glue I'll give Locktite a call.

-Clint
 
Mike Barton had his 25 pounder in my shop for a while. IIRC, he use oiled letter for the clutch material.
 
Mike Barton had his 25 pounder in my shop for a while. IIRC, he use oiled letter for the clutch material.
Click to expand...

For a minute I was wondering what the hell oiled letter is but I'm guessing oiled leather :D

I thought about that but I'm not sure now after seeing practically no wear on that piece of rubber. Once I get it back in there I'll probably do more research and poking around before I settle on something final. I'll be at the ABS hammer in later this month and will probably ask around then.

-Clint
 
Thats interesting.
Different design over my 25# LG. what uses wooden blocks.
I wonder if your cone is drilled to accept riveted friction material ? I might guess a clutch like that was intended to use the same stuff the flatbelts were made of.
Any reason that rubber cant be riveted ?
 
yes, leather>I think he said that was what was originally used or maybe what was used once you couldn't get asbestos anymore. ;) As I recall, the bigger issue that we had was the "throwout" and that was mostly because of a stretched out spring to the treadle. Mike's hammer also had a cracked sow block which died all attempts to repair it by welding, so the god news is yours appeared to be in much better condition.
Augus7us said:
For a minute I was wondering what the hell oiled letter is but I'm guessing oiled leather :D

I thought about that but I'm not sure now after seeing practically no wear on that piece of rubber. Once I get it back in there I'll probably do more research and poking around before I settle on something final. I'll be at the ABS hammer in later this month and will probably ask around then.

-Clint
Click to expand...
 
The explanation that I have heard is that these hammers and some other similar ones you see for the era were a result of a family squabble at LG. These Mayer hammers appear to be a simplified version of the old style LG design.
Lieblad said:
Thats interesting.
Different design over my 25# LG. what uses wooden blocks.
I wonder if your cone is drilled to accept riveted friction material ? I might guess a clutch like that was intended to use the same stuff the flatbelts were made of.
Any reason that rubber cant be riveted ?
Click to expand...
 
My old 25 LG has this type of clutch (newer ones use wood blocks). Sid built mine and used some type of clutch material, it's glued and brass riveted.
 
Industrialclutch.com popped up near the top of my google search. They have a page on their website devoted to friction cone clutches with a bunch of downloads. Seems like they can sell you the right stuff in the right shape and size. I would investigate the industrial offerings for the clutch material, but that's just me, and a lot of other materials like leather or rubber will work. Now as to how long they will last...that's another matter.

I don't know if the Locktite cyanoacrylate will last longer than epoxy, but it will bond faster. I had an application last year where I needed to bond rubber together, something I've never had much luck with. I've had a lot of gluelines fail sooner or later. I bought the very expensive little bottle of the proper Locktite adhesive for rubber to rubber, followed the instructions carefully, and was pretty surprised that it worked perfectly. I have not tried rubber to metal in a while, but I bet there's a specific adhesive for that. However, it looks like there is a lot of old adhesive on the back of the rubber in your clutch, so it's going to be hard to know exactly what you are trying to bond to the metal, which is a long winded way of saying if you've got the epoxy, why not try it. If you decide to rebuild your clutch with new clean rubber, then look into the Locktite.
 
I figured I would update this thread while I was online. I ended up taking a paper towel and folded it up a few times and soaked it in acetone. I then shimmed it in where the rubber would go and did my best to rub off all the oil and grease. I'm sure its not nearly as clean as I could get it if I took it apart but I figured it was good enough for now.

After it was cleaned I mixed up a batch of West Systems with extra slow hardener and coated the back of the rubber. I should mention that prior to this I tried to grind the old glue and crud off the rubber on the KMG. Since I get about an hour of pot life with extra slow I had plenty of time to fit it on the cone and use an acetone soaked rag to wipe off the extra epoxy. To keep the rubber pressed against the cone I placed a few half cylinder blocks on the treadle and engaged the clutch. 24 hours later I checked my mixing cup and the epoxy was hard as a rock so I removed the blocks and the clutch was stuck despite trying to remove all the glue. I ran a razor blade along the outside of the rubber and the clutch popped out.

I wanted to give the epoxy at least one more day to cure but I couldn't resist smashing a wooden dowel just to make sure the glue took. I have to admit I wish I had done this a lot sooner. As the rubber was starting to tear away from teh last glue up I was loosing a lot more power than I realized! I'll give it a real test this weekend but so far I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.

On a side note I did notice there were small holes drilled in the cone so when I do take it apart I will rivet new clutch material like Don's.

-Clint
 
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