Assisted openers?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I won't get into the patent/copyright/trademark issue on this one, but I will say that I deem the whole trip into the production of "assisted-openning" folders to be, legally, a very dangerous proposition. I feel, based on what is already happening, that this may well lead to attempts to outlaw all one-hand openning knives. I don't like it, it is illogical, but it is politically appealing to some. Look at the problems some are having importing one-hand openers into Canada and you will see what I mean. I would rather that we had never gone down this road of assisted openning, which appears to be what is attacting attention to one-hand openners as well.

Read me on this! One-han openners and assisted-openners should never be outlawed, just as automatics and gravity blades should never have been outlawed, but they were and so could our one-hand openners if the assisted openners attact too much attention. I just hope that AKTI is keeping an eye on this, not only as proposed laws but as various jurisdictions attempt to interpret existing laws to ban them.
 
Hi Ken, thanx for visitin'. The dialogue does bring up interesting questions.

Hi Deadmanwalking and Planterz. While I respect your position, I must disagree to a point. The elements in question would be 1) time and 2) the difference between "loophole" and "improvement" and 3) funds.

Ken came up with the idea to use an over center spring to assist the opening of a knife blade. If that was the extent of his patent, there would be no problem. But, the PTO requires that you show how to build it. So the inventor comes up with every possible way to build the invention that he/she and the lawyer can think of. It's not possible to come up with all of them! Once the invention is in production, it is easier to come up with other ways.

Invention and the PTO is designed to protect the inventor, but also to create "improvement". "Another way" to do something may or may not be a real "improvement".

1) The PTO allows 20 years for the inventor to "make his mark". In most cases, if the idea is making money, the jackals appear quickly. Finding a flaw in the wording is the first line of attack. Our hole opener patent was "loopholed" by a famous custom maker based on the word "hump" in our patent within 10 years of the invention. Another famous knife company "loopholed" our Dyad over the words "Boye dent" in less than 8 years.

Kershaw has been making assisted openers for less than 10 years. So much for the 20 years designed into the system.

The inventions that you speak of that have unknown origin are all much older than current. They do not fall within the 20 year "allowance" for inventors.

2) Finding another way to do something that is an improvement is fair and helps all. Find another way to do the same thing that doesn't really improve on the invention is a delicate question. One that I cannot judge. If the inventor was able to protect his/her "idea", rather than "construction method", much would be different.

3) Funds ultimately play a big role. The company with the most "bucks" to blow on attorneys more often than not wins, regardless of whether or not they are legal or just.

If you guys are going to be knife aficianados, then you should have a basic understanding of how this works so you can properly support your passion and the companies that provide for your passion

sal
 
Very well put Sal ! It would have taken me at least 20 paragraphs to say the same thing . My statements were general and not necessarily to represent whats hapening with speed safe but rather encompass a larger arena where less than honorable decisions were made for the sake of the $

Sal has been ripped off numerous times .His experiences alone could take several pages to mention.

Ed Halligans Kiss has been yanked out from underneath him by a technicality.Now there everywere

Ernie Emmerson has been copied many times.

There are at least 4 renditions of the Axis lock that all essentially do the same thing.

I could go on

My point is that people sell there credibility ,honor ,self respect really cheap. Some will call you friend for a time and when they get there chance they will slit your throat for the $. It is rarely about technical merits and much more often about taking your stuff because your doing well with it .
Most will then smile at you and claim "Hey it's business" . like that is an excuse to compromise your ethics.

I give Sal alot of credit , He has always been an honorable guy and done the right thing .
 
I can verily see a use for assisted spring technology in your rescue/emergency knives for pure practical reasons. It take much less dexterity to open an assisted knife, especially one with a flipper. I can imagine situations when manual dexterity is compromised. Now, when will we see a clip point D'Allara model?
 
Sal Glesser said:
I see quite a few assisted openers being advertised lately.

I know about Blackie Collins "Strut' n cut" (Which is a different concept than the Ken Onion invention).

So, how many are there and who are they? I figured you would probably know them all.

sal


Sal,

Although I have a Kershaw - Ken Onion Random Task and a Benchmade 9050AFO, both of which perform flawlessly in keeping with their designs, I question the need for and hype over "assisted openers."

From my knothole it is a rare situation indeed where knives with opening features beyond those you've brought to market that can be opened one handed are needed.

Implicit in my logic is the need to have control of the knife with a solid grip in order to be able to properly (safely and effectively) employ the blade. Ken's design requires a good nudge to activate and a firm grip to hang on to :) (As an aside, the first time I played with it I thought it was gonna leave my hand. I love its Warncliffe blade and it continues to be a "keeper.") The button activated switchblade, of which my 9050AFO is an example, is very effective for gloved handed SAR personnel, but is of a design class that has legal implications.

So maybe I'm missing something in not being enamored with being able to deploy a knife one-handed faster than I already can with folders such as your Military. (Yes! I still have the one you presented me with for being the first to post on the then new Spyderco Forum :).)


Sal Glesser said:
A dialectic on ethics of IP loopholes. If an innovatively strong company is capable of loopholing any patent in the knife industry, should they?

As for this issue, I think it has been adequately addressed already. No! Having the capability to loophole a patent brings into question the ethics of a company and the major players behind it. Spyderco and Sal Glesser have never played that game and I'd be extremely surprised to see a course change at this junction. Ken said it best above.... you are a straight shooter :)

Best!

--Bob Allman
Original General Forum moderator

Never to be forgotten: James Mattis, Walt "Doc" Welch, Rob Simonich
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Ken, thanx for visitin'. The dialogue does bring up interesting questions.

Hi Deadmanwalking and Planterz. While I respect your position, I must disagree to a point. The elements in question would be 1) time and 2) the difference between "loophole" and "improvement" and 3) funds.

Ken came up with the idea to use an over center spring to assist the opening of a knife blade. If that was the extent of his patent, there would be no problem. But, the PTO requires that you show how to build it. So the inventor comes up with every possible way to build the invention that he/she and the lawyer can think of. It's not possible to come up with all of them! Once the invention is in production, it is easier to come up with other ways.

Invention and the PTO is designed to protect the inventor, but also to create "improvement". "Another way" to do something may or may not be a real "improvement".

1) The PTO allows 20 years for the inventor to "make his mark". In most cases, if the idea is making money, the jackals appear quickly. Finding a flaw in the wording is the first line of attack. Our hole opener patent was "loopholed" by a famous custom maker based on the word "hump" in our patent within 10 years of the invention. Another famous knife company "loopholed" our Dyad over the words "Boye dent" in less than 8 years.

Kershaw has been making assisted openers for less than 10 years. So much for the 20 years designed into the system.

The inventions that you speak of that have unknown origin are all much older than current. They do not fall within the 20 year "allowance" for inventors.

2) Finding another way to do something that is an improvement is fair and helps all. Find another way to do the same thing that doesn't really improve on the invention is a delicate question. One that I cannot judge. If the inventor was able to protect his/her "idea", rather than "construction method", much would be different.

3) Funds ultimately play a big role. The company with the most "bucks" to blow on attorneys more often than not wins, regardless of whether or not they are legal or just.

If you guys are going to be knife aficianados, then you should have a basic understanding of how this works so you can properly support your passion and the companies that provide for your passion

sal

Thanks for the words Sal but like I said at the start of the post I was intended to play Devil's Advocate. I think that we all can agree to disagree on the philosophy here and agree on the notion that regardless of what we might think, you're right on track here.

I do have to admit you are obviously coming from a design/manufacturing background and I am coming from an education background. In education we steal ideas from each other all the time without asking permission because this enables us to provide a superior product. i.e. a superior education. I for instance invented a series of models that teach geometric concepts that others have copied, and I in turn copy some of their ideas.

I'm used to this mindset and it's just how I see things. I understand though what's acceptable in my "world" may not be in yours.

What I see as a gray area others must view in terms of black and white. And I respect your intentions to stay firmly in the white so to speak. If I made knives or widgets that's how I'd operate regardless of how I actually felt about the issue. I wouldn't want to set a bad precedent.

Ultimately though when you put all the talk and thought aside, the proof is in the pudding. Product predominates patents in my mind. Bottom line at the end of the day I buy Spydercos because they're the best. Any company can make a knife with a compression lock, a clip, and a hole in the blade but they can't do it as well as the people who invented all of those things. No one makes a Spyderco better than Spyderco.

A nifty patented feature does not customers make. I for one do not buy Emersons simply because I don't like the way they're designed overall wave or no wave. In my mind Coke is not losing customers to Sam's Choice Cola. Sure they're both the same thing but we all know only Coke is Coke.

In my entire life there's only one knife I've bought two of and that's the Endura. I haven't even bought 2 Victorinox Classics. Honestly if you guys made a Swiss Army Knife and a slightly more traditional multitool I would probably buy Spyderco 4.5 times out of 5 :) I'll stop rambling now I think I forgot whatever point it was I may have had.
 
Pros:
  • Its flashy
  • It fast
  • It requires slightly less effort
  • er....
  • Thats it

Cons:
  • Its borderline illegal: you might be buying something you'll have to lock away or throw away.
  • You're following fashion not setting it.
  • Existing models are dangerous, often opening in pockets. Ironic since automatic knives were originally designed to be safe.
  • More parts to go wrong/maintain.
  • You sacrifice control for speed in opening and closing

Something new from Spyderco would be much more interesting...
 
Hi Deadmanwalking (devil's advocate ;) ),

thanx for the comments. It's a forum, so it's all in the dialogue anyway. Appreciate your taking the time to share thoughts.

Thanx Ken.

sal

---------------------------------------------------------

We are all teachers and we are all students.
 
From my knothole it is a rare situation indeed where knives with opening features beyond those you've brought to market that can be opened one handed are needed.

True, in fact the reason I first bought my Blackout 2 years ago was because I'd just hyperextended my middle finger and couldn't open a number of other knives because I used my thumb and middle finger to open them. The assisted open solved that problem for me - I don't need it anymore but it's still handy and the Blackout is the best folder I've ever used (I haven't used very many good knives mind you, but until I saw the BM 921 I haven't wanted to get another knife).
 
Another assisted opening thing is the ASAP from Buck (I don't know if this was mentioned earlier).
 
Good dialogue on the patent issues. It's hard to see something you pour hours and hours of your life into be misappropriated, especially by someone who does a sloppy job using it. On the other hand, the 20 year patent expiration allows for competition to make the product better and cheaper, which is good for the consumer.

As far as assisted openers in particular:

I wouldn't want to have to defend my posession of one to a jury, unless it was one of those mini-rainbow models (Chive?) The prosecutor will get up there, give it a flip, and the jury is convinced it's a switchblade. Switchblades are for killing people, right. So this guy must be scum. And away I go to the slammer.

I really think the majority of the population doesn't understand someone carrying a knife. Despite the fact that they have big, chunky 10 inchers in their kitchens, I pull out a 3" pocket knife to scrape the label off something, and it's "Don't go killing anybody with that!" Too much Rambo, not enough Martha Stewart. (speaking of Martha, I hear her name is on the upswing with the Kmart/Sears merger. Any way we could get her to use a Spydersaw? She hawks $100 pruners, why not $100 knives.)

It seems like a bit too much trouble. If I really need a knife that fast, I'll carry a fixed blade. Fortunately, there are small fixed blades that are usually legal, unobtrusive, and appropriate pocket-knife replacements for most conditions. Less parts to break, as well.

Overall, ease of opening is important to me. But holes and studs get the job done.
 
I think that the market demand for assisted openers demonstrates one thing: that people want them.

Should Spyderco miss out on those customers? Obviously not.

But I wonder if the Assisted Opener is basically riding along a grey area when another, better approach might be 100% in the clear and achive the same goal: live blade in hand fast or under difficult circumstances.

The whole business of "Waving" knives, for example, so that they open on the inside edge of a pocket because the back of the blade catches on a specially designed "hook" / bottle opener... innovative answer to automatic knife speed with no new technology to speak of, and it seems to be legally in the clear.

Perhaps there are simple, alternative approaches which also get the job done but don't slide along the edge between manual and automatic blades.
 
Having had knives snag and open on the way out of my pocket in the manner of the Emerson Wave system, I think that I prefer to control the opening of my knife with my own hand, thank you.
 
I've had a Camillus Dominator Tanto for about 24 hours. It's well designed and constructed, with the very best of materials. It's sharper than a serpent's tooth. I'm very glad I bought it.

And there's no doubt in my mind that in the unlikely event of a policeman finding me with it, he would confiscate it as an illegal switchblade at the very least. I can imagine the judge's expression if a lawyer in my defense tried to make the case that the knife is an "assisted opener" as opposed to a switchblade.

Although I am opposed to switchblade laws, I feel that this genre of knife does indeed violate the spirit of these laws, if not the actual wording.
 
I wasn't suggesting SpyderCo adopt the Wave approch per se.

But I do think there are probably lots of alternative ways of putting a live blade in hand which we just haven't thought of, which don't sail in legal grey areas, and which we'd all be really pleased to see.
 
Dear Mr. Glesser:

Yours is an unusual dilemma. It shouldn't be but it is. Basically it is this: Is it okay to coopt the ideas of others--even if it's legal, and even if you offer slight modifications or even improvements--because you can, and because the originators of the ideas you seek to coopt lack the money to hire the legal clout to prevent you from doing so?

I've actually attempted to write you a thoughtful response twice before, but I ended up deleting those attempts. The issue is deliciously complex, and it was too late at night for me to do justice to the ethical conundrum you pose. I'm going to try to take another crack at it now.

One of the lovely things about a quality, innovative knife manufacturer is that the enterprise straddles the fence between art and commerce. Still, most businesses--the auto industry immediately comes to mind--are me-too businesses. Everyone imitates everyone else. If something proves popular, everyone instantly copies it. Their lawyers sort everything out.

But the auto industry is a mass market industry. The knife business is a cottage industry. When you coopt the ideas of others, it's not really like Ford stealing--excuse me, copying from--from Toyota. It's more personal. In the case of Spyderco creating a new assisted-opening knife based on the ideas of Ken Onion, it's more like Sal Glesser personally taking something from Ken Onion, whether Ken Onion approves of this or not. Ken Onion isn't a mega-corporation. He's just a person. If Spyderco creates a knife that employs a Ken Onion idea, which Ken Onion doesn't have the legal power to protect, it ultimately translates into potential lost sales for Ken Onion designs.

Is this kosher? Well, that depends. The quick and dirty answer is Yes, because everyone does it, and it's legally sanctioned to do it, as long as the appropriate fees are paid for the use of "prior art," as patent attorneys like to say. It's legal, but is it ethical? That's a more difficult and complex question.

But you've already answered it: it isn't. It isn't because you feel it isn't. It isn't because you raise it as an issue in the first place when many others would not. That, ultimately, is the meaning of ethics. Ethics isn't something your church or synagogue says is okay. Or what the government says is okay. Or what your friends and loved ones say is okay. It's what your soul tells you is okay. Your soul appears to be telling you it isn't okay. Even though the issue isn't clear-cut, even though business and legal considerations would put you entirely in the right, the fact that you wrestle with this dilemma suggests that, for you, it isn't okay. The rest is just rationalizing.

Perhaps you are thinking about how you felt when others in the knife industry began to copy the Spyderhole, or the Spyderedge, or some of your knife designs. This is a legitimate baseline for guiding your future behavior. "Do unto others" is one of the Ten Commandments. It's a pretty good one.

In the art world, artists copy each other all the time. In cubisim, Bracque copied Picasso (or was it the other way around, or did they both more or less invent the same artistic style simultaneously?). Picasso and Bracque were friends. They didn't see themselves as enemies or even competitors. And both hoped to sell their work for as much money as possible. But neither was in the business of mass production. (Well, in Picasso's case, perhaps not.)

Mass production is about making money. It's about market share. It's about zero sum solutions: in order for me to win, you must lose. In order for me to sell a profitable number of knives based on a Ken Onion design, I must lure potential customers of Ken Onion's away from his knives to mine.

Is this ethical? Yes! Such imitation is at the very heart of international commerce. Unless someone like you arbitrarily draws a line in the sand and says, in effect: No! I will only create knife designs that employ technological innovations that I have commissioned.

Take the karambit, about which I have done much meditating of late (see my thread, which has over a thousand views: "Spyderco Karambit: Full of Surprises"). The karambit design is old if not ancient. Jay Tarani introduced and popularized it in the US. Ernest Emerson created what is probably the hottest karambit now on the market. Spyderco's entry comes a bit late in the game. But do any of these karambits involve any technological innovations? No, they don't. There are design differences, of course, but a karambit is still a karambit, regardless of the manufacturer.

This is not the case when you incorporate the Ken Onion speed-assist mechanism into a Spyderco knife. It isn't a centuries-old, traditional design. It isn't one mega-corporation laying broad sword upon armor of another mega-corporation. It's Sal Glesser squaring off against Ken Onion.

This is something unique to the whole knife-using enterprise: unlike shooting someone at a distance with a firearm, wielding a knife is a personal, intimate, close-order thing. When you cut someone, your hand is attached to the other end of the cut. There is no distance. Being a successful company like Spyderco affords that distance. You don't need to cut a Ken Onion with a knife. You can, in effect, shoot him with lawyers. You're a company with clout. He's just a person.

Psychonanalysts have an axiom: everything you know is true. There are no accidents. If you want to produce Spyderco's version of a Ken Onion speed-assisted knife, there is nothing in the American way of doing business to prevent you from doing so. The fact that you have reservations about it is, from an ethical perspective, your answer. Ethics come from the gut. No one call tell you what's right. Only you can. It is, in a way, an awful knowledge. It's bad for business. It goes against your interests. But, in the end, there it is.

Neil Chesanow (aka hotwriter)
 
I received a little Chive as a gift last Christmas, don't use it all that often. It's too small, and the assisted opening feature is not really something I put much faith in. Meaning, it has opened in my pocket accidentially. So, I use the little slide safety latch. Now it takes longer to open than it needs to. Granted, this probably isn't the best example of assisted opening in the world either but it's all I have to go on.

As far as I'm concerned however ...... a well designed thumb-hole or thumb-stud gives me plenty of "speed", is more controllable, and is safer (for me anyhow).

In short, I don't need/want an assisted opening knife, there are no benefits having that feature, and I would not buy one. Personally, I think it's over-hyped.
 
"Do unto others" is one of the Ten Commandments. It's a pretty good one.
No, it's not. :p


Seriously, Spydercos and Ken Onion designs are my favorite knives, but I don't see combining the two. And although Spydercos are clearly the best knives in their price class, part of the reason I love them so much when I was raised on Schrade Old Timers is based on what I know of Sal and the company. To me, the hallmarks of Spyderco are unswerving integrity, purpose-driven innovation and professional quality.

I don't get to these forums much now that I'm so busy on gun forums, but I remember Spyderco's unofficial motto used to be something like "Integrity means doing the right thing when no one is looking." To me, that implies a greater truth: integrity is doing the right thing even though you could get away with it. Integrity is doing the right thing when people are telling you that you shouldn't have to do it.

In short, I don't need/want an assisted opening knife, there are no benefits having that feature, and I would not buy one. Personally, I think it's over-hyped.
Before the flippers and "bumps" were added to Speed-Safe knives, I agreed with that sentiment. With the flippers, however, they're pretty darn cool. I haven't ever had one open in my pocket, though. I admit that a big part of the reason I like them is that they're legal (in Illinois) and switchblades are not. The switchblade laws are stupid, and being able to get the benefits of a switchblade without breaking stupid laws appeals to me.
I bought my dad a blue anodized Scallion for exactly that reason. He used to collect switchblades, mostly old fishing knives and the like. A lot of people don't realize that before the "Blackboard Jungle" hysteria, switchblades were very common on all sorts of folding knives and all blade styles. Most of dad's switchblades would have passed for grandpa's old Case XX pocketknife with most non-collectors (and of course, many of them were) but it was still a Misdemeanor to contemplate owning them. :rolleyes:
The Scallion gives him a knife he can legally carry and use like a switchblade without carrying a switchblade. It also matches his uniform. ;)
 
I guess this thread got away from me while I was travelling.

Hi Neil. Thanx for taking the time to write your views. Appreciate.

I don't think that there is any disagreement. I do like the way you put it.

My question was a commercial one, not an ethical one. "Is there enough interst to bother?"

Spyderco would not consider making an assisted opener without Ken Onion's (& Kershaw's) blessings and approval. Proper royalties would be paid, proper credit given, and everything would be up front. It is the Spyderco way.

There is no squaring off between Ken & me. He knows what he created, I know what he created. And yes, it can be difficult. I invented the clothing clip for a knife (1981). Every knife company in the world has copied my idea. Only two asked permission, only one paid a royalty.

I do agree that it is unethical to use what I call "LLD". (Lawyers, loopholes and dollars) to "take ideas away" from others. It was depressing to watch Cole Industries beat Tim Leatherman out of the Leatherman trademark. (LLD)

Unfortunately, in this industry, it is common. There are many about that think "morals" is a big picture on a wall, and "scruples" is Russian money.

I applaud your position and respect and admire you to state it.

sal
 
I have Chive bites on both hands. Scallion opens in my pocket without being locked. Somewhat of a pain to lock/unlock. Scallion opened itself and jumped off the kitchen table and stuck point first into the linoleum floor. :confused: It survived the jump. I'll stick to my Delica for edc. :) All the others are just for looking at. :rolleyes: I never have gotten a Spydie bite. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top