assisted opening legal in pennsylvania?

B

Bugbear

Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
28
Hey everyone,

I've been looking around online with no clear answer to my question. Are assisted openers legal in PA? The Pennsylvania law says:

Pennsylvania - Pa. C.S.A. 18.908. Prohibited offensive
weapons. (a) Offense defined.--A person commits a
misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized
by law, he makes, repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in,
uses, or possesses any offensive weapon. (b) Exception.--
It is a defense under this section for the defendant to
prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed of
dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic
performance, or that he possessed it briefly in
consequence of having found it or taken it from an
aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any
intent or likelihood that the would be used unlawfully.
(c) Definition.--As used in this section "offensive
weapon" means... any... dagger, knife, razor or cutting
instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic
way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or
otherwise...
- also see 24 P.S. 13-1317.2. re: students bringing weapons
on to school property.]

Pennsylvania case law:
Where opening knife required lock to be released, and
once lock was released blade could be exposed by flip of
wrist, knife did not have blade which could be "exposed in
an automatic way"... by "otherwise" legislature referred
to knives that were opened by some sort of mechanism which
is not a "switch," "push-button," or "spring" mechanism
but still a mechanism... (1979)
Click to expand...

I've taken several law classes, and based on my previous, although limited, knowledge I would almost have to say that I cant have my leek :grumpy:. The case law seems to establish the "otherwise" phrase as a catch all for what ever they feel like not allowing.

What is everyone’s take on this?


-bugbear
 
You might consult the book Knife Laws of the Fifty States, though it might not address your question directly. Failing that, the simplest test is to find a Wal-Mart. If they're selling the assisted-opening Kershaws in there, they're most likely fine.
 
yea there legal in all of the states because in canada they sell buck assisted knives at walmart
 
Never listen to law advice on the internet as you won't have computer access in jail to yell at them when they are proved wrong ! The concept of AOs bases it's legality on the idea thet you do not press a button in the handle of the knife and that you have to over come some resistance so it is not totally automatic. That is a fine line to keep you out of jail. The wording of the PA law seems to include AOs as banned knives since they clearly do have a spring. I am former NYC LEO and now manage shopping malls in NY NJ and PA and the ones in Philly I visit often. I have had lunch with several different Captains from the Philly PD ( as a part of my job) and I always ask their view on knife carry, which is pretty much always anti knife. The rest of PA seems to be more open and less interested in making a knife arresst. I was amazed years ago about how little guns restrictions exist in PA, and I would think that would also make most LEOs look less seriously at a knife charge...Finally NEVER base what a store sells as a basis for it being legal. Walmart has had several issues with local laws concerning weapons and often has not quickly changed their policies. Many sporting goods stores in NY sell knives that the courts have affirmed are illegal but they are never stopped selling them, so to use this as a method of determing the legality of a knife is not a wise method at all...
 
Internet legal opinions are very dangerous and you never should rely on them.
With that in mind, based on the subsections you posted (and that is not enough to support a real legal opinion), the key phrase is "the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way" Base on a literal interpretation, if you have to manually open the knife so that the entire blade is exposed and the assist kicks in after tyhe entire blade is exposed, you should be OK.
However, some caveats. If the entire blade is not exposed manually you could have a problem if some LEO is being difficult. Bad facts can make bad law. Also, in Canada, if the knife can be adjusted so that it opens by gravity or manipulation it is prohibited even if the knife was never designed to do so. The same thing may apply to opening "automatically", so be sure the AO mechanism is set up properly and isn't easily converted or adjusted to open the knife or to kick in after partial exposure of the blade.
 
the blade is not automatically deployed, you have to use your fingers to open it, the spring assit, simply makes it easier to open but you have to manually start the blade in motion. that along with the fact that Wall mart does sell assisted opening Kershaws make me think the law can be interpreted that assisted opening knifes are ok in PA, otherwise wall mart is selling illegal wepons.
 
They are legal in Pa but be aware of local laws. You'll likely have trouble in Philadelphia.
 
A local LEO explained to me that it is up to the officer at the time of the incident whether or not what knife is being carried is legal. Based on his judgement of what its' purpose is and the situation in question. Example: You are roaming the streets at 3a.m. dressed fully in black carrying a Benchmade 470 Osborne. He may deem you are up to no goods and treat you as he wishes. My opinion: This is an example of how we are creeping closer to insanity every day.

SEMPER-FI TIL I DIE
 
Morrow said:
They are legal in Pa but be aware of local laws. You'll likely have trouble in Philadelphia.
Click to expand...

Philly has an outright ban on "Any knife or other cutting instrument which can be used as a weapon that has a cutting edge similar to that of a knife" (Philadelphia Municipal code 10-820). How draconianly this is enforced, I don't know, but leave the Leek at home.

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Pennsylvania/philadelphia_pa/title10regulationofindividualconductanda?f=templates$fn=document-frameset.htm$q=10-820%20$x=server$3.0#LPHit1
 
My boys and I have resently started selling a few knives after years of collecting, several of our customers are Pa state troopers. Because the law is so deliberately vague I asked them about our open assists, they all seem to believe that they were legal but said that if the officer had reason to believe that you were "up to something" then he may question you about why you were carrying the knife. There have only been two convictions for knives in the past ten years and they were used in the process of committing a crime.
 
I have sold knives in several states over the past 5 years,Pennsylvania being one of them, I would like to add to this discussion.
#1; According to what I have learned of State Law,AO is legal to a point.
#2 ANY pocket knife with a blade of more than 3 5/8 inches,when carried in a pocket,is considered a weapon and requires a Concealed Carry Permit.
#3 An Automatic knife requires a Concealed Carry Permit,period. Except for Law Enforcement and Active Duty Military.
#4 In the field,all of these laws are open to interpretation of the Officer. If you run across a Township Constable having a Bad Day,it could cost you.
#5 The Pocket Clip is a Dead Giveaway to said Officer that you're packin SOMETHING.
 
rma100 said:
I have sold knives in several states over the past 5 years,Pennsylvania being one of them, I would like to add to this discussion.
#1; According to what I have learned of State Law,AO is legal to a point.

What is the "point" you reference? Local knife laws like the very restrictive ones in Philly?

#2 ANY pocket knife with a blade of more than 3 5/8 inches,when carried in a pocket,is considered a weapon and requires a Concealed Carry Permit.

First I've heard of this. Do you have a link to the statute that defines this?

#3 An Automatic knife requires a Concealed Carry Permit,period. Except for Law Enforcement and Active Duty Military.

Are you sure CCW covers knives? Do you have a link to the statute for this one as well?

#4 In the field,all of these laws are open to interpretation of the Officer. If you run across a Township Constable having a Bad Day,it could cost you.
#5 The Pocket Clip is a Dead Giveaway to said Officer that you're packin SOMETHING.
Click to expand...

I'm going to wait to respond to #4 and #5 as I don't believe your statements to be based on facts. For example, Pa. CCW laws DO NOT in any way cover knives.
 
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I live in pa and next door to a cop and have picked his brain many times. When it comes to Kershaw stuff they are considered flippers which is an opener on the Blade, not a push button. No problems there. he said that you may get hassled for a large knife. He suggested staying under 4" to avoid the hassle. Pa is pretty friendly with gun and knife laws. So if your stopped make mention of what you have and you should be fine. Hell I carry a 4" fixed blade in my back pocket as an edc everywhere except the court house.and have never ever ever had a problem even with the handle sticking out
 
Morrow said:

I'm going to wait to respond to #4 and #5 as I don't believe your statements to be based on facts. For example, Pa. CCW laws DO NOT in any way cover knives.
Click to expand...

http://knife-expert.com/pa.txt

Pennsylvania Illegal, but exception made for collectors and/or possession as curios. - State Code: Pa. C.S.A. 18.908 Illegal - State Code: Pa. C.S.A. 18.908

http://reviews.ebay.com/Quick-Refer...e-Switchblade-Laws_W0QQugidZ10000000007130677

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUeeK0goWcg
 
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rma100 said:
http://knife-expert.com/pa.txt

Pennsylvania Illegal, but exception made for collectors and/or possession as curios. - State Code: Pa. C.S.A. 18.908 Illegal - State Code: Pa. C.S.A. 18.908

http://reviews.ebay.com/Quick-Refer...e-Switchblade-Laws_W0QQugidZ10000000007130677
Click to expand...


So where in the two references you linked does it back up these statements?

#2 ANY pocket knife with a blade of more than 3 5/8 inches,when carried in a pocket,is considered a weapon and requires a Concealed Carry Permit.
#3 An Automatic knife requires a Concealed Carry Permit,period. Except for Law Enforcement and Active Duty Military.
 
(b) Exceptions.--

It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance
of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a
dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary
device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.), or
that he possessed it briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from
an aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any intent or likelihood
that the weapon would be used unlawfully.
This section does not apply to police forensic firearms experts or police forensic
firearms laboratories. Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts
or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary course of business and
engaged in lawful operation who notify in writing, on an annual basis, the chief
or head of any police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere, the
sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the possession, type and use of
offensive weapons.
This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise
deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws
of this Commonwealth.
(d) Exemptions.--The use and possession of blackjacks by the following persons in
the course of their duties are exempt from this section:

Police officers, as defined by and who meet the requirements of the act of June
18, 1974 (P.L.359, No.120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education and Training
Law.
Police officers of first class cities who have successfully completed training which
is substantially equivalent to the program under the Municipal Police Education
and Training Law.
Pennsylvania State Police officers.
Sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of the various counties who have satisfactorily met
the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
Police officers employed by the Commonwealth who have satisfactorily met the requirements
of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
Deputy sheriffs with adequate training as determined by the Pennsylvania Commission
on Crime and Delinquency.
Liquor Control Board agents who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the
Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

Pennsylvania is the only state of which the criminal code is not available online.
 
rma100 said:
(b) Exceptions.--

It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance
of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a
dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary
device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.), or
that he possessed it briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from
an aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any intent or likelihood
that the weapon would be used unlawfully.
This section does not apply to police forensic firearms experts or police forensic
firearms laboratories. Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts
or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary course of business and
engaged in lawful operation who notify in writing, on an annual basis, the chief
or head of any police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere, the
sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the possession, type and use of
offensive weapons.
This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise
deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws
of this Commonwealth.
(d) Exemptions.--The use and possession of blackjacks by the following persons in
the course of their duties are exempt from this section:

Police officers, as defined by and who meet the requirements of the act of June
18, 1974 (P.L.359, No.120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education and Training
Law.
Police officers of first class cities who have successfully completed training which
is substantially equivalent to the program under the Municipal Police Education
and Training Law.
Pennsylvania State Police officers.
Sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of the various counties who have satisfactorily met
the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
Police officers employed by the Commonwealth who have satisfactorily met the requirements
of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.
Deputy sheriffs with adequate training as determined by the Pennsylvania Commission
on Crime and Delinquency.
Liquor Control Board agents who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the
Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

Pennsylvania is the only state of which the criminal code is not available online.
Click to expand...

Thanks for continuing to post information that does not back up your statements. Where does it say you need a concealed carry permit for a knife? I'll save you some time, it does not. Concealed carry permits are for firearms, not knives. Whether the knife is an automatic changes nothing. Autos are illegal to carry except for the stated exceptions. There are no state laws restricting blade length.
 
Well then show some State Law to back up YOUR statements.
 
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