At nearly 69 years old - I've learned you can't beat...

I get why some folks prefer carbon steel. It's tried, tested and true cutlery steel--it works and has for generations. It's familiar and relatively simple to maintain. I don't mind carbon steels and have many such knives. I like 'em just fine.

Might have been a few years ago, I waxed romantic about carbon steel on the Forums, and mentioned how my granddad certainly used his old knives a lot harder and more frequently than I use mine. Kind of a 'if it was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for me' sentiment. It was @Ankerson who set me straight. Slapped me sober, so to speak. :eek:

You can have your druthers and preference, but there should be no dispute that super steels are vastly superior. Better rust resistance (in many cases), better strength and heat treat, better edge retention, et cetera, and Jim has the hard data to prove it. Better is better, and it should not be mistaken for 'good enough'.

And so, in conclusion, my S110V Millie can indeed beat a "good old fashioned carbon steel blade" all day, every day, and twice on Sunday... :p
 
000Robert said:
I prefer PM steels myself, but all steel has its place. People just need to buy the knives that make them happy and that makes having knives more enjoyable. The old 'my dad can whip your dad' doesn't accomplish much good.
Click to expand...

Hi Robert,

I hope you didn't read my post as a 'my dad can whip your dad' sentiment. My point was that the idea that an old timey carbon steel blade is better than one of modern 'super steel' is fantasy. If that argument is about sheer performance, the question is likely more about geometry than steel...
 
Last edited:
I love knives. I enjoy sharpening, and caring for knives in the evening, its very cathodic for me. Im usually handed two or three knives a week from friends and coworkers to clean and touch up. While I enjoy my stainless knives, if I were forced to choose, I'd be in the Carbon camp.
 
Hal said:
I'm not sure if it was because the blades were in need of touching up, or, if it was more the ritual of touching up that's responsible for that ;).
Click to expand...
No, they needed it. To be honest tho, a couple of the fellas always show up with a “fresh off the stone” knife that I don’t consider sharp, and neither would you. But that’s the same guys that have never had a nice thing to say about Buck or stainless steel because they couldn’t sharpen 440C.
 
What gets me and leaves me shaking my head is when I see a knife listed for sale that claims it’s premium steel and come to find out it’s 1095 carbon steel dressed in common materials and they are asking $160 or more. There’s a difference between premium steel and common 1095 even the cv blend. Just because there are fans of it and is desirable to them doesn’t make it a premium steel. There’s also a big difference in the type of use you can expect to get a high level of performance and service life. I don’t begrudge someone wanting carbon steel but laying claim as a premium steel and that it will do just as well as the super steels is laughable. Not everyone uses their knives to only open envelopes or packages and cut strings and maybe slice an apple. There’s many people who live and work in places that require a knife that will get much more done with better results with far less sharpening and maintenance. I would venture to say I use my knives just as hard and as often maybe even more so than my grandpa and his generation. My grandpa didn’t have large round bales of hay wrapped in nylon twine or plastic, he didn’t work in an industrial type of environment with exposure to industrial chemicals and materials that are abrasive. I still go camping, hunting and fishing and other outdoor activities. If you think our generation has only soft work you’d be mistaken and you probably don’t get out much. It’s out there, you just don’t see it from your point of view.
 
timberweasel said:
Hi Robert,

I hope you didn't read my post as a 'my dad can whip your dad' sentiment. My point was that the idea that an old timey carbon steel blade is better than one of modern 'super steel' is fantasy. If that argument is about sheer performance, the question is likely more about geometry than steel...
Click to expand...

No, I pretty much meant in general according to all posts on the subject.
But you are correct. There are other things that go into the performance of a blade in a given situation like blade geometry, heat treat, apex angle, and if the steel is really what the seller claims that it is.
 
afishhunter said:
I agree.
However, just so you know, "praising" the simple basic steels like 1095, 440A, and 420HC ... or "lesser" steels, for that matter, or pointing out that they still get the job done, same as they have for over 100 years (over 500 years for the 10xx carbon steels) for 99.999% of those around the world (most using the "lesser" steels) who use a knife daily (most a lot "harder" than anyone here would dream of) isn't going to make you very popular around the forum, or earn you credibility with those who believe you need a "super steel" (preferably the "latest and greatest" since everything that came before it is now "obsolete" and doesn't perform/cut/hold an edge, or whatever, any more) if you use your knife for more than opening envelopes ... some seem to actually believe the simple steels require sharpening after opening one envelope or cutting a single cotton thread... :(
Click to expand...
Wow, may have just broken the record for the longest sentence ever written! I have experienced the scorn (joking) for pushing cheaper is just as good in most daily use. No big deal, I actually find it amusing to hear there is a need for a $200-$300 knife to cut cardboard.
 
Squid61 said:
I have experienced the scorn (joking) for pushing cheaper is just as good in most daily use. No big deal, I actually find it amusing to hear there is a need for a $200-$300 knife to cut cardboard
Click to expand...

I agree! Most of my premium stainless steel knives from cpm154 at $40-90, S30V at $85-160, s35vn at $130-200 limited edition and 20cv at $85- 150 also limited edition. All of them are superb working knives. I’ll never wear them out and will pass them on to my kids and grandkids. To me that’s value not just because I use them but also because of the time and experience with family and friends doing memorable things together.
 
Lee D said:
No, they needed it. To be honest tho, a couple of the fellas always show up with a “fresh off the stone” knife that I don’t consider sharp, and neither would you. But that’s the same guys that have never had a nice thing to say about Buck or stainless steel because they couldn’t sharpen 440C.
Click to expand...
I avoided buying Buck knives because of the 440C and Buck's hardness for the heat treat. They were just a pain in the butt to sharpen for me. That was pre-diamond stones and have no issue now. I honestly never bought a 110 because of this until much later in my life. I still prefer Schrade's 250T however to the 110.
 
Both?

For the kitchen I want stainless. I cook most of my dinners so I don’t want a fuss here. I want something that cuts well and I can abuse. That is cheap-o-stainless with good geometry. My favorite is the kiwi brand 8 inch chef’s knife. I think it’s the “Thai chefs knife.” Great geometry with a gradually sloped belly and a super thin hollow grind. 5 bucks and I have 3 of them. I’ll use one and throw it in the dishwasher. If I don’t run the dishwasher before I need a knife I’ll just grab another. I sharpen them every couple of months or so or when I may cut something soft like tomatoes or bread(which is rare).

Outdoors I mostly use carbon because it tends to be available in what I want and I value strength and ease of sharpening. You know for that one time when sharpening a knife on a river rock saves the day.:rolleyes: Silly but super edge holding isn’t necessary so why not?:D That said, I would gladly swap out all of my 1095 and similar steels in favor for a sandvick steel if I could get them in the same geometry/model. They’re the same in my use only rust resistant.

For edc I want something with edge holding and edge stability around s30v or better. Right now I’m using a hap40/sus410 delica. You know the one. The carbon steel clad in stainless. ;)

So many choices but if vanilla is your thing...:D
 
Smaug said:
I disagree. 1095 carbon steel is not very hard, (Rc 53?) though it is easy to sharpen. For the money, you can get an entry level stainless that is very nearly as easy to sharpen, harder AND stainless. (AUS8 @ Rc 57, for example)
Click to expand...

If you have a 1095 knife at 53rc, some one.some where royally screwed up.

Even 55-56 rc is too soft for a decent 1095 ht.

Out of the quench, you should be 64rc or so.

Temper back to 58-60 (higher for kitchen knives).

A 53 hrc would be a bit low for my medium carbon machetes and throwing knives out of 1055.


There are companies that run their 1095 softer (many have a pretty wide range from 53-58 like Old Hickory-- their outdoor designated knives tend to be a narrower window like 57-59).

It is not a character trait of 1095... it is laziness/cost cutting combined with running them soft to reduce returns for blade damage (there are higher end production knives that commit this sin of leaving performance on the table to make the blades less likely to be damaged).

I have many 1095 knives from makers that are run where the hardness should be.

GEC runs their 1095 at 57 to 59 rc.

I have a few old hickory 1095 blades that may be a bit lower in the 55 range.

I have opinel that (XC90) is run at 57 to 59

Case CV is in the 55 hrc and I don't really care for it.
 
Bigfattyt said:
If you have a 1095 knife at 53rc, some one.some where royally screwed up.

Even 55-56 rc is too soft for a decent 1095 ht.

Out of the quench, you should be 64rc or so.

Temper back to 58-60 (higher for kitchen knives).

A 53 hrc would be a bit low for my medium carbon machetes and throwing knives out of 1055.


There are companies that run their 1095 softer (many have a pretty wide range from 53-58 like Old Hickory-- their outdoor designated knives tend to be a narrower window like 57-59).

It is not a character trait of 1095... it is laziness/cost cutting combined with running them soft to reduce returns for blade damage (there are higher end production knives that commit this sin of leaving performance on the table to make the blades less likely to be damaged).

I have many 1095 knives from makers that are run where the hardness should be.

GEC runs their 1095 at 57 to 59 rc.

I have a few old hickory 1095 blades that may be a bit lower in the 55 range.

I have opinel that (XC90) is run at 57 to 59

Case CV is in the 55 hrc and I don't really care for it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the data. ...but it is still right about what a good AUS8 or 8Cr is. So what's the point?
 
Better at what? While they might not be able to hold a long term edge like modern PM stainless, one thing it's difficult to argue with is that carbon steel and some tool steels are definitely more durable in bigger blades designed for hard impact.

In smaller knives most decent production 1095 seems to roughly match well done 420hc, 14c28n, or Aus-8/8cr13, but there are too many variables to make a concise comparative judgement. Although there's extra maintenance, exceptionally well done 1095 can perform fairly well, be easy to sharpen, and still be cost effective. Even if it's not the best, it is usable enough.

Stainless has a bad reputation because the original stainless steels had such a low hardenability. We've made major strides since then, but how much a company cares about their heat treatment is still one of the biggest factors. Overall, carbon steel will have a very hard time outperforming modern stainless at the edge.
 
To me, it's personal choice.

Modern stainless steels do have better edge retention, some even have better toughness for small blades and so on...

Why I personally love carbon steel:
1. It's very easy to put an edge on it and get it scary sharp
2. It's fairly durable and can take a lot of beating
3. I love patina
4. It's affordable

I don't care much about edge retention as long as it's decent.
I don't care about corrosion resistance, and to me it feels therapeutic to oil my blades.
Well used carbon steel blades look like they have some stories to tell. Even coated ones, as steel will patina on places where coating is worn off.

That being said, I always struggle to put an edge to stainless blades, despite the fact I can successfully sharpen even 3V without any issues.
 
MarkN86 said:
....In smaller knives most decent production 1095 seems to roughly match well done 420hc, 14c28n, or Aus-8/8cr13, but there are too many variables to make a concise comparative judgement. Although there's extra maintenance, exceptionally well done 1095 can perform fairly well, be easy to sharpen, and still be cost effective. Even if it's not the best, it is usable enough.

Stainless has a bad reputation because the original stainless steels had such a low hardenability. We've made major strides since then, but how much a company cares about their heat treatment is still one of the biggest factors. Overall, carbon steel will have a very hard time outperforming modern stainless at the edge.
Click to expand...
These days I seldom get anything in 14c28n, Aus-8 or 8cr13. Buck does good 420hc. Condor offers a few blades in 420hc also and one of their machetes in that steel is one of my favorites. As far as 1095 goes, it is mostly something that I get with GEC and Becker knives these days. Been a while since I bought a Becker as I am pretty "filled up" with fixed blades now. At this point, any new fixed blades will be some sort of impulse buy or a small one for edc use.
 
Different strokes for different folks. There is no wrong answer. I love all steels. The patina on a carbon is beautiful to me, it shows the use of a knife. Others I love how stainless looks like new after much hard use. If you keep up with a strop most edges can be touched up pretty quick. For me it's just routine, but I know others would rather buy a new knife than to re-edge it.
 
Love my Ontario Rat 3.5 inch 1095 Carbon Steel blade always in my backpack for my back country trips! Easy to resharpen, takes a wicked, strong, sharp edge, strong knife build and doesn't take up much room. 1095... classic steel!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top