ATFE says you CAN transfer a homebuilt firearm.

jacqueeagonsr

jacqueeagonsr

Joined
Apr 24, 2008
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In Bruce Bump's thread on the dagger/pistol project, the subject of what kind of 'guns' one can make, tranfer, sell, give away etc., came up. TMIX got a good start going. I'm hoping we can continue the discussion without stealing Bruce's thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted in Bruce Bump's thread

TexasKnifeMaker said - - -
Bruce - could you address the issue, the legal issue, of making 'guns'. Do you have to have an FFL?? I've been told that you can make them for your own use, but it's illegal to sell or give them away. Could you recommend any books or web site where one can learn about making black powder guns?? It could be a big discussion - what one can and can't legally do. I don't want to detract from the informative strain of this thread - and your work is beautiful - maybe a seperate thread should be started to discuss this.
Regards,
Jacque

BruceBump said - - -
Jacque, good question and one Im often asked. Anybody can legally make muzzleloading guns and sell them or give them away. The key word is "muzzle-loading". If you make any other loading method even if it uses black powder it cant be sold or given away unless you have a Federal Firearms Licence. This one may be questionable as it looks like another weapon (dagger) but the barrel is unmistakable and so is the hammer, trigger and curved handle. Nothing is hidden about the gun parts.

TMIX said - - -
Bruce, not to come off as an A**, but, I'm afraid you are mistaken about some things.
Any person who can own a firearm, can make a firearm. You are allowed to transfer the firearm to another person, but there are a few requirements you must meet to do so. Please see BATFE regs. for the specifics.
I believe what you mean by "another weapon" is actually "any other weapon", or AOW for short. Knife/gun combos fall under this classification. A person can build an AOW, however it requirers a $200 transfer tax be paid to the .Gov and various pieces of paperwork approved be and sent to the BATFE before you can build the firearm. Even an AOW can be transfered to another person, if the proper paperwork and procedures are followed.

The key point I want to make about your post and your build itself is that, a muzzle loader is not considered a firearm. Muzzle loaders are not regulated by the BATFE. You can buy one over the internet and have it sent to your house without any paperwork. So, you build is perfectly OK in the eyes of the .Gov. However, state laws might be different, depending on where you live.


Quote:
1. ATFE says you CAN transfer a homebuilt firearm. You must NOT have made it with the intent to transfer it, but once you have made it, you may sell or dispose of it the same as any other firearm of that class (handguns subject to handgun laws, Title II guns subject to NFA, etc.). It is EXACTLY the same as if you bought a "factory" gun and decided to get rid of it. As long as your intent when you got it was "for personal use", you can later dispose of it.
Caveat -- Before you transfer it, you must mark the receiver of a homebuilt Title I (i.e., "normal gun" type you could buy across the counter at an FFL with a Form 4473) firearm with the same markings that would be required if you were making and registering a homebuilt Title II (NFA-controlled firearm) gun. Homebuilts DO NOT (under federal law) require ANY markings as long as the MAKER retains them -- unless they are registered as NFA guns. That means you can mark the homebuilt Title I gun when you make it, or at any subsequent time, so long as it is marked by the maker (yes, you can "farm that work" out to a professional engraver or stamper) before you transfer it. This is the current position of ATFE.

Here is an FAQ on NFA(AOW's included) weapons. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...st/nfa_faq.txt
 
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This will be interesting for me and others that want to make something like this gun. I really hope Im not stepping out of the law as thats not the kind of person I am. I stick with muzzleloaders only because I believe there is no paperwork required. Im just a simple man
 
Jacque,
I used to do gunsmith work back in the 1970's. IIRC, making a gun of any type that is regulated by the ATF ( mainly any gun that takes a cartridge), requires a FFL. Transfer of this class weapon requires using your FFL or having a registered source transfer it.

Black powder is a different category,and some rules are a bit looser. Yes you can make your own black powder weapons,and even sell and ship them.But, if it is made in any way that disguises the true nature of the device, it is about the same as a switch blade. It may be illegal to sell, transfer, transport across state lines, etc ( in some places ,perhaps even to own).

Saying that a black powder gun is not a firearm is semantics ( just because some federal statutes exempt them, doesn't make them exempt from other regulations). Cary one down the street, into a bar, or to the airport, and see how long it takes before you see the inside of the local jail.
Also, black powder may not be a firearm ,until you load it. Then it becomes a deadly weapon, and is the same as a 30-06 in the eyes of the law. An example of this point is that you still need a hunting license to hunt with black powder.

As far as your statement that any person who can own a firearm can make a firearm - Unless they have completely changed the regulations ( I don't recall them getting laxer!), it actually requires a FFL to even modify any gun made under FFL control. That means that if you want to change the barrel length on a rifle or shotgun, modify the chamber to another cartridge, or in some cases, even add a poly-choke, you must have a FFL or have the work done by someone who has one. You cannot manufacture any normally controlled gun, modify one , or operate one beyond the legal limits ( remove the plug from a shotgun tube, or put on a 30 round magazine on a hunting rifle). I admit that these things are regularly done, and people regularly go to court for it ( and often prison).

It is often a misinterpretation of the statutes to assume that if something is legal to do with a license for others, it is legal to do for yourself without a license. Wiring your home is sort of the same thing. While you may be legally allowed to change a socket, you usually can't add a circuit without a permit, and in many municipalities, without a license.

Just wanted to chime in with a word of warning that some Federal regulations are a bit hard, and ones dealing with weapons are very strict.

If I am wrong about these laws, and they have been changed, I would still rather be wrong on the side of caution.Most of these statutes are felonies, and can haunt you the rest of your life.

Stacy

I read the link, and unless I am reading it wrong , It does not seem to say what you are saying?
 
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jacqueeagonsr said:
In Bruce Bump's thread on the dagger/pistol project, the subject of what kind of 'guns' one can make, tranfer, sell, give away etc., came up. TMIX got a good start going. I'm hoping we can continue the discussion without stealing Bruce's thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted in Bruce Bump's thread

Bruce - could you address the issue, the legal issue, of making 'guns'. Do you have to have an FFL?? I've been told that you can make them for your own use, but it's illegal to sell or give them away. Could you recommend any books or web site where one can learn about making black powder guns?? It could be a big discussion - what one can and can't legally do. I don't want to detract from the informative strain of this thread - and your work is beautiful - maybe a seperate thread should be started to discuss this.
Regards,
Jacque

Jacque, good question and one Im often asked. Anybody can legally make muzzleloading guns and sell them or give them away. The key word is "muzzle-loading". If you make any other loading method even if it uses black powder it cant be sold or given away unless you have a Federal Firearms Licence. This one may be questionable as it looks like another weapon (dagger) but the barrel is unmistakable and so is the hammer, trigger and curved handle. Nothing is hidden about the gun parts.

Bruce, not to come off as an A**, but, I'm afraid you are mistaken about some things.
Any person who can own a firearm, can make a firearm. You are allowed to transfer the firearm to another person, but there are a few requirements you must meet to do so. Please see BATFE regs. for the specifics.
I believe what you mean by "another weapon" is actually "any other weapon", or AOW for short. Knife/gun combos fall under this classification. A person can build an AOW, however it requirers a $200 transfer tax be paid to the .Gov and various pieces of paperwork approved be and sent to the BATFE before you can build the firearm. Even an AOW can be transfered to another person, if the proper paperwork and procedures are followed.

The key point I want to make about your post and your build itself is that, a muzzle loader is not considered a firearm. Muzzle loaders are not regulated by the BATFE. You can buy one over the internet and have it sent to your house without any paperwork. So, you build is perfectly OK in the eyes of the .Gov. However, state laws might be different, depending on where you live.


Quote:
1. ATFE says you CAN transfer a homebuilt firearm. You must NOT have made it with the intent to transfer it, but once you have made it, you may sell or dispose of it the same as any other firearm of that class (handguns subject to handgun laws, Title II guns subject to NFA, etc.). It is EXACTLY the same as if you bought a "factory" gun and decided to get rid of it. As long as your intent when you got it was "for personal use", you can later dispose of it.
Caveat -- Before you transfer it, you must mark the receiver of a homebuilt Title I (i.e., "normal gun" type you could buy across the counter at an FFL with a Form 4473) firearm with the same markings that would be required if you were making and registering a homebuilt Title II (NFA-controlled firearm) gun. Homebuilts DO NOT (under federal law) require ANY markings as long as the MAKER retains them -- unless they are registered as NFA guns. That means you can mark the homebuilt Title I gun when you make it, or at any subsequent time, so long as it is marked by the maker (yes, you can "farm that work" out to a professional engraver or stamper) before you transfer it. This is the current position of ATFE.

Here is an FAQ on NFA(AOW's included) weapons. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...st/nfa_faq.txt
Click to expand...

the last time I asked this question I was told that you cannot sell a homebuilt weapon that is of a certain type (muzzle loaders are exempt IIRC) to anyone...

dude i would really make sure of what ya talking about before posting ;)

ohh

AND

what Stacy said :D
 
(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

This was copied and pasted from the BATF FAQ.

Here is the link to the BATF firearms site. Makes for interesting reading.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

Ken
 
bladsmth said:
As far as your statement that any person who can own a firearm can make a firearm - Unless they have completely changed the regulations ( I don't recall them getting laxer!), it actually requires a FFL to even modify any gun made under FFL control. That means that if you want to change the barrel length on a rifle or shotgun, modify the chamber to another cartridge, or in some cases, even add a poly-choke, you must have a FFL or have the work done by someone who has one. You cannot manufacture any normally controlled gun, modify one , or operate one beyond the legal limits ( remove the plug from a shotgun tube, or put on a 30 round magazine on a hunting rifle). I admit that these things are regularly done, and people regularly go to court for it ( and often prison).

It is often a misinterpretation of the statutes to assume that if something is legal to do with a license for others, it is legal to do for yourself without a license. Wiring your home is sort of the same thing. While you may be legally allowed to change a socket, you usually can't add a circuit without a permit, and in many municipalities, without a license.
Click to expand...

Bull.

Aside from issues of constructive possession, you can do anything you want to parts. Parts is anything that wouldn't require an FFL to transfer. You can't put things together in an illegal configuration and there are some parts that would be illegal to own if you also own a receiver that could be assembled in an illegal configuration (constructive possession). There are also exceptions, like some sear cut FAL's that are legal to own with a safety sear and with that safety sear installed (but you might be hosed if you own a FA selector).

There are some areas that are a little grey but pretty much anything an FFL smith would be able to do legally you can do legally yourself without an FFL on your own gun. Changing a barrel or swapping grips should be fine unless there is something about the change that makes the gun illegal.

Beside that, how would any one be able to prove that you did anything? You can say I took it to a smith who's name I can't remember and I lost the receipt. If the gun isn't illegal, you're in the clear.

The bottom line is if the gun can be owned legally, it doesn't matter how it started and the only way to get "caught" is if you let your non-FFL amateur gun smith buddy work on it and it gets seized in a raid.

The only questionable part of that knife/gun is how the gun would be classified. If it was possible to interpret it as a cannon, then it might be an AOW. That's the only thing I would be worried about.
 
Well, I didn't do a very good job of doing the quotes at the beginning of this thread. I'm asking the question "What, if any, firearm can I make".

the quote "Any person who can own a firearm, can make a firearm." came from poster TMIX.

If you disagree with him, please don't throw rocks at me :o for not totally and properly giving him credit for his opinion.

After I post this, I will go back and try to clarify my original start of this thread.

Keep your opinions and links to gov't regs coming - all are appreciated. The one thing I'm sure of is that I don't want to get caught up in 'the system'.

Thanks,
Jacque
 
Do we have any lawyers in the crowd? I think we may need one just to interpret the long winded, double talk regulations.
Lets try to keep it simple for now to just cover the "muzzle loading" "any other weapon" confusion. Its important to me.
BTW thanks for putting your heads together guys.
 
Jacque, I was just referring to your post, not specifically you in person.No slight intended.

Longbaugh is saying the same thing, except that he (more correctly) is saying that you can get a permit to do your own work. But you must have that permit or a FFL(which is what I was referring to in my post).
Others - I agree that many things can be done and you can probably get away with it. That was not the point of my post. The point I was trying to make is that there are many grey areas when it comes to weapons, and if the law enforcement agencies want a reason to hassle you, they can easily find a place where you have crossed a line.

Some possible things that may be used by the police/Feds are:
It may be legal to make a suppressor (silencer) with a permit,but if you put it on a gun in your possession while off you own property, it may be construed as illegal.
Or you may be allowed to build or modify your own arms,with a permit, but may not be allowed to transport them across a state line.
Or, as I said earlier, the legally made or modified item may be simply called a deadly weapon, and it doesn't mater where it came from, who made it, or what it is classified as by the ATF( once it leaves your property).A parallel is that you may ,quite legally, have a hammer and screwdriver in your car trunk. Put them in a bag and walk down the alley behind a store or house that you do not own, and you suddenly are " in possession of burglary tools".
In some cases, simply handing a home built or modified weapon to another person to shoot (off your own property), may be enough to be called "transfer of possession".

To reiterate my original points:
Many things can be read two ways when dealing with weapons ( even pocket knives, lately). If you have any doubt, contact the local ATF agency.( the local police/sheriff/etc. may say,"No problem", but the ATF makes and enforces most of the rules.)

While you might get away with some things, it doesn't make them legal, just because you didn't get caught. And it won't help to use the fact that " Lots of people do it and don't get caught" as a defense. (Try that with a traffic judge on a speeding ticket)

I am more interested in keeping the public image of knife making and knife makers as being law abiding artisans and craftspersons. The current public view in many places is that they are a bunch of renegade anarchists making quasi legal and illegal weapons.

Final grin:
The fact that there is nothing illegal or immoral in dying your hair purple and green, and braiding your beard into pigtails with pink bows on the ends won't keep most of the public form thinking you,weird or insane.

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
I used to do gunsmith work back in the 1970's. - - - - -
Black powder is a different category,and some rules are a bit looser. Yes you can make your own black powder weapons,and even sell and ship them. - - - -
Click to expand...

Stacy - you seem to be fairly knowledgable on this subject. Please comment, if you can, on some of the specifics regarding black powder 'guns'.
Any restrictions that you know of on barrel length (when does a pistol become a rifle)? Smooth bore vs rifled?? Muzzle loader vs cartridge (the 30-30 lever action was initally black powder)??

I appreciate your knowledge. Would you happen to be, or know, a lawyer who can offer advice to the forum pro bono??

Jacque
 
It may be legal to make a suppressor (silencer) with a permit,but if you put it on a gun in your possession while off you own property, it may be construed as illegal.
Click to expand...
If you have the correct paperwork from the FEDS , you can go anywhere suppressors are legal. You do not have to file paperwork ( 5320.20 ) to transport a suppressor across state lines as you do with a subgun/machinegun , legally you do not have to with a suppressor , however you can submit for a 5320.20 and make your life easier if stopped. :)

tons of reading out there on this stuff.. though you have to stand on your head , in a mirror with the wind at your back to interpret 1/2 of it.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html
 
Black powder is one of two things.
It is a simple explosive powder made from sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter.
And,it is also a category of firearms .
The problem starts when one term crosses the other. Black powder ammo, as in shotgun shells and old style cartridges ( the old 30-30 rifle or damascus shotguns), is considered the same as any cartridge gun. You can't take your Model 1100 and load it with black powder shells and go hunting during "black powder season".
"Black powder weapons " refers mainly to muzzle loading firearms which are designed to use black powder as the propellant and have a primitive ignition system.They cannot be capable of using any modern ammunition. They are not classified as controlled guns under the ATF regs, and are considered "antique". They can be used and possessed by anyone who could legally use or possess a regular gun ( Just like those little scooters can be ridden by anyone who could legally ride a motorcycle). They do not require registration,but generally must be used in conformation with the existing laws that apply to a regular gun.Hunting with them is regulated by the State Game and Fisheries Dept. Carrying a muzzle loading gun is under the same rules as an other gun, you just don't need any paperwork.If it is legal to carry a pistol down the street in your town, you can carry a cap and ball revolver or musket pistol. If it is illegal to carry a gun somewhere, it is illegal to carry muzzle loaders there,too.

I recall no length rules for black powder weapons, but IIRC, any caliber above 100 (1" bore) is considered a cannon.
Any weapon ( knife,gun,sword, club,garrote, whatever) that is made in a manner to disguise or conceal its appearance or use can be construed as a concealed weapon. It can be in plain sight, and is still considered concealed.

A quick call to the ATF will clear up any specific questions.

Bruce's Cut and shoot pieces are easily recognized, and would be classified as "antique" and thus exempt from manufacture and sale regulations. The black powder in the flask and the percussion caps require more paperwork than the knife/gun does.(Black powder, fuse, and percussion caps are all regulated explosives by the ATF )

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
( Just like those little scooters can be ridden by anyone who could legally ride a motorcycle). They do not require registration,Stacy
Click to expand...

may I add to this,
little scooters under a 50 cc engine size you can drive on town and state maintained roads in Maine but only need a drivers license,, little scooters size
50 cc and up you'll need that motorcycle license and that registration . :D
 
Stacy - that's an excellent write-up on muzzle loaders. What you are saying is that Bruce, in your opinion, is safe in what he is making. And, for myself, in my desire to make and sell single shot muzzle loading cap-and-ball pistols similar to the ones used in the 1800's, to go along with my bowie knives, I can do so, in your opinion, without license or registration.

I have put emphisis on the 'in your opinion', to make sure anyone reading this realizes that you (Stacy) are not legally liable or responsible in any way if you are wrong. Everyone should proceed at their own risk.

I thank you for your opinion.
Jacque
 
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it's been said here that you can make a sawed of Shot gun legally :confused:,, maybe so,, maybe not ??
the biggest problem with most any of this is, if the police catch you, say off your property withn most of this stuff, or most anything that is questionable TO THEM in knives or guns
you'll bet they will take first and ask questions later, the courts will be asking the questions from there on in,, like it or not..if you can get paper on what ever you're doing, it could be a good thing to do just in case, at least saving in court time... .. cops aren't made to remember stuff you know, for fear of making a mistake,, like reading the Miranda :D
 
Thanks Guys, BTW, I am married to a lawyer.

I think Dan has summed up my point pretty well.

Stacy
 
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