Atlatl

this conversation would be a lot more fun over a camp fire and a few bears, for me it all comes down to a lot of what we know is from someone elses conjecture, doesn't mean its wrong tho.


I have a copy signed by Glen, haven't read it in a while but they are good reference books to have around.

I do think (again) it was more about materials than anything else, if they would have had hedge apple it could have been completely different.

The bears would certainly give reason for a shorter, easier maneuvered bow.:) I agree on materials. No yew no English longbow. What is hedge apple?
 
The bears would certainly give reason for a shorter, easier maneuvered bow.:) I agree on materials. No yew no English longbow. What is hedge apple?

You don't actually make bows do you? I'm not a bowyer but have built a few. (these are a list of some major bow woods, not what I've used) Hickory, Ash, Mulberry, Locust, Yew, Iron wood, Vine Maple all pale in comparison to the Hedge Apple.

It's also known as Osage Orange, or the French name Bois D'arc. (bow-wood), or Maclura pomifera. check the link below, it is wiki but most of it seems to be true.

Some in my area seem to think the tree was here before Europeans moved into the area, which means natives would have had to plant them. The trees are so dense stone ax heads don't do very well so fire wood wouldn't have been worth planting them, plus theres to many other easier to use woods around here. The only reason to plant these trees would have been to use them for bows.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclura_pomifera
 
You don't actually make bows do you? I'm not a bowyer but have built a few. (these are a list of some major bow woods, not what I've used) Hickory, Ash, Mulberry, Locust, Yew, Iron wood, Vine Maple all pale in comparison to the Hedge Apple.

It's also known as Osage Orange, or the French name Bois D'arc. (bow-wood), or Maclura pomifera. check the link below, it is wiki but most of it seems to be true.

Some in my area seem to think the tree was here before Europeans moved into the area, which means natives would have had to plant them. The trees are so dense stone ax heads don't do very well so fire wood wouldn't have been worth planting them, plus theres to many other easier to use woods around here. The only reason to plant these trees would have been to use them for bows.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclura_pomifera

Never made a man sized bow. My strength is academics. And there are a lot of very fine craftsmen out there who have the ability to communicate their knowledge through writing. So I know how to make a bow. If I get a couple of good elm staves, one of these days, I'll make one. I have read that Osage bows are really good if made correctly. I've also read that it is difficult to make them correctly?
 
Never made a man sized bow. My strength is academics. And there are a lot of very fine craftsmen out there who have the ability to communicate their knowledge through writing. So I know how to make a bow. If I get a couple of good elm staves, one of these days, I'll make one. I have read that Osage bows are really good if made correctly. I've also read that it is difficult to make them correctly?

I didn't mean that in a bad way, typing isn't my first language.

Osage isn't as hard as other woods to use.

try googling primitive archery shoot in your area. I go to one in marshal MI every spring and the bowyers there sell staves and teach people how to make bows on site with their tools.
I've seen guys show up not able to use a draw knife and have a bow to shoot by Saturday night or Sunday morning.

I've only made a few, I'm not a bowyer by any means, but the first one I did I used a book, a few actually and didn't get anything until I got some instruction.

Osage staves aren't that expensive in this area and I think three rivers still sell them. Hell if you can a trip to the primitive shoot in Marshal would be a good place to start, just on the other side of the country from you.

As for writing Gary Davis has a dvd out that demos from start to finish, I've never watched it myself but I've heard its great. I've met Gary and he makes a hell of a bow, and I've watched him make a couple dozen at Marshal.
 
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Thanks, I'll check on those primitive shoots. I think I read about one in North Idaho. I think they even had someone there with an atlatl. I'll check around and see if I can get some black locust branches and make a quick and dirty survival/hunting bow. I read a story about a bowyer who tried it and made a surprisingly usable bow.
 
Definitely enjoying this discussion, but we may want to move it over to the 'trad archery' thread since it's gotten off topic.

I have a friend who makes some beautiful osage self-bows, and has a number of good videos on the process - I'll post the link in the archery thread....:thumbup:
 
This thread got me thinking. I was thinking of making a PVC bow for long distance casting, but I'm wondering if an Atlatl might be way easier. Basically I was thinking of treating the arrow like a float, having terminal tackle attached in a way that would all for casting, and have the whole mess attached to a rod and reel. Anyone think this is at all possible? is a 75-100yrd launch even possible?
 
This thread got me thinking. I was thinking of making a PVC bow for long distance casting, but I'm wondering if an Atlatl might be way easier. Basically I was thinking of treating the arrow like a float, having terminal tackle attached in a way that would all for casting, and have the whole mess attached to a rod and reel. Anyone think this is at all possible? is a 75-100yrd launch even possible?

It seems possible to me. The reel could act as a counter weight on the thrower if you didn't hook it up to a rod. Are you thinking about fishing? Heck, the thrower could act as a stiff rod if you had a couple of eyes the line could clip into on it
 
I'm thinking for surf fishing, to launch the bait passed the breakers. I guess by whole mess, I meant the line, hooks etc. I was thinking of using a rod, but having it in a ground holder. sort of something like how they do with kite fishing, I think....?
I'm trying to devise in my head how to make a dart that would allow for a safe cast (keep the hooks contained or at least well away from me) and still allow a fairly deep hanging hook.
 
The farthest I've ever slung a dart was just under 125 yrds. That was a thin piece of cane about 6ft long. Maybe, 6oz. in weight.

I tried different lengths of atlatl all the way up to a 42 inch that I used 2 hands to throw and still didn't really get any more distance than I did with the 20 to 22 inch atlatl.

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't have tried it. It seemed like a no brainer to me, longer handle, more leverage, more distance, nope, didn't work for me.

Maybe I didn't go long enough, it got real awkward with two hands tho.
 
While its true many weapons become "Mythified" such as the katana able to cut though anything...

The slings accuracy by properly trained slingers(from a very young age) is documented by actual historical records.

Greeks used them as snipers to kill enemy commanders in the center of a battle from outside edge of battle.
You claim this is propaganda..
Yet
Spanish records state that the Pacific islanders slings out ranged the effective range of the firearms the Spanish had(smooth bore) and were capable being slung with such force they would bury themselves in a coconut trees and they fired far faster.
The British empire in Afganistan reports that it was not the Bows or firearms that were the most dangerous weapon the Afganis had... it was the sling.

We have actual documented historical records of firearm using troops vs competent slingers, which if anything would want to DOWNPLAY the effectiveness of such a primitive weapon... and also from personal letters not public.. so once again.. little point for propaganda.
We also know that the slings POWER and RANGE were not propaganda... as they are easy to reproduce.
It seems weird to me that people would feel the need to overstate the accuracy of such weapons, the Spanish for example with the Aztecs state they were NOT accurate with them yet they used large stones the size of your fist or bigger and could kill a man or horse instantly, in this case the slings were more artillery then pinpoint weapons.

Its easy to claim things are myth... we could go that route with longbows and 11 arrows per min.
This was considered a myth.. its now been confirmed by archers that have grown up using longbows at 160-180 pounds... its not a rate that can be continued yet its now proven when previously it was considered myth...

Also it was considered "myth" about stories of archers rapidly shooting arrows, shooting arrows while falling off a horse etc... yet now its known NOT to be myth.
Check out Lars Anderson on youtube.
You may wish to hold off on calling(Or this case imply) things as "MYTH".

The sling holds up in both power and range to historical records, it however falls on accuracy when used by modern "slingers" yet most of these picked it up in late teens or adulthood not trained since able to walk and we also know that technique is important and we actually dont have knowledge of how exactly ancient slingers used slings. No ground exists to argue the accuracy of the sling from historical records when those same records are correct on the range and power while accuracy which is based on experience is the only thing lacking and those same records often mention training since childhood of expert slingers.

Which brings us back to the thread and topic at hand... the Atlatl seems to an easy weapon to build and learn to use with relative effectiveness(something the sling is not).
Having now made two rough versions I have found it really easy to make to the point if need be you dont even need a knife. It beats a bow for ease of construction, and beats a sling for ease of function.
Seems to be the goldilocks of survival weapons.
I would still rather rely on traps to try to catch food, but in a situation I was in need of gathering my own food without a firearm I would also take the time to make an Atlatl.

"The most accurate non rifled projectile weapon humans ever invented" that is a bold statement, even with the "(that we know of)" part.

Well there you go, it must just be another of those things that we can't do today or atleast don't see on the youtube.

I've seen shepherds in Afghanistan throwing rocks at feral dogs, they had the distance but not the accuracy to scare them off but only hit 1 out of 10 from what I saw.

As far as classical Greece, propaganda is propaganda, even if its written in Greek.

all I'm saying is I've seen guys that were suppose to be good with them that weren't that good as far as archery goes.
 
While its true many weapons become "Mythified" such as the katana able to cut though anything...

The slings accuracy by properly trained slingers(from a very young age) is documented by actual historical records.

Greeks used them as snipers to kill enemy commanders in the center of a battle from outside edge of battle.
You claim this is propaganda..
Yet
Spanish records state that the Pacific islanders slings out ranged the effective range of the firearms the Spanish had(smooth bore) and were capable being slung with such force they would bury themselves in a coconut trees and they fired far faster.
The British empire in Afganistan reports that it was not the Bows or firearms that were the most dangerous weapon the Afganis had... it was the sling.

We have actual documented historical records of firearm using troops vs competent slingers, which if anything would want to DOWNPLAY the effectiveness of such a primitive weapon... and also from personal letters not public.. so once again.. little point for propaganda.
We also know that the slings POWER and RANGE were not propaganda... as they are easy to reproduce.
It seems weird to me that people would feel the need to overstate the accuracy of such weapons, the Spanish for example with the Aztecs state they were NOT accurate with them yet they used large stones the size of your fist or bigger and could kill a man or horse instantly, in this case the slings were more artillery then pinpoint weapons.

Its easy to claim things are myth... we could go that route with longbows and 11 arrows per min.
This was considered a myth.. its now been confirmed by archers that have grown up using longbows at 160-180 pounds... its not a rate that can be continued yet its now proven when previously it was considered myth...

Also it was considered "myth" about stories of archers rapidly shooting arrows, shooting arrows while falling off a horse etc... yet now its known NOT to be myth.
Check out Lars Anderson on youtube.
You may wish to hold off on calling(Or this case imply) things as "MYTH".

The sling holds up in both power and range to historical records, it however falls on accuracy when used by modern "slingers" yet most of these picked it up in late teens or adulthood not trained since able to walk and we also know that technique is important and we actually dont have knowledge of how exactly ancient slingers used slings. No ground exists to argue the accuracy of the sling from historical records when those same records are correct on the range and power while accuracy which is based on experience is the only thing lacking and those same records often mention training since childhood of expert slingers.

Which brings us back to the thread and topic at hand... the Atlatl seems to an easy weapon to build and learn to use with relative effectiveness(something the sling is not).
Having now made two rough versions I have found it really easy to make to the point if need be you dont even need a knife. It beats a bow for ease of construction, and beats a sling for ease of function.
Seems to be the goldilocks of survival weapons.
I would still rather rely on traps to try to catch food, but in a situation I was in need of gathering my own food without a firearm I would also take the time to make an Atlatl.

You do know that there is an Atlatl organization that has competitions on a regular basis, yes?

They usually have a bunch of people with slings there too.

If they hold it in Marshall MI. again next year, you should go. They will also have a group there that uses exact copies of English longbows there doing demos
and will even let you try your hand with a longbow.

What you won't find there is a longbow that goes anywhere near 160-180 range.

Keep writing you sound like you have yourself convinced that people of yesteryear were somehow super human and not just us that grew up doing different
things.

I do agree that the atlatl is a much easier weapon to make but not as accurate as a bow, but like a bow it's more about the projectile than the launcher.
 
Reproductions of the Mary Rose bows using high altitude wood show most were over 130 pounds with estimates putting the average draw weight beteween 140-160 pounds. Reproductions using low altitude wood are FAR lower poundage.... Testing on the Mary Rose bows shows they are all high altitude wood which led to early estimations of poundage being vastly underestimated as most modern bows are made from low alt wood.
I could also point out that BEFORE the Mary Rose 80-90 pounds was cited by many as the max poundage of English warbows.

However its not my job to convince you on slings, bows or anything else, anyone can do a quick search and read multiple studies and published papers about the Mary Rose. Studies of modern 160-180 pound CONFIRMED archers and even scans of there skeletons showing they have the same deformities as English archers of old.

As it is I see no point of further discussion about slings or bows.

What I would love to see is some people chrono Atlatl darts give the weight so we can work out a general amount of force they hit with.
You do know that there is an Atlatl organization that has competitions on a regular basis, yes?

They usually have a bunch of people with slings there too.

If they hold it in Marshall MI. again next year, you should go. They will also have a group there that uses exact copies of English longbows there doing demos
and will even let you try your hand with a longbow.

What you won't find there is a longbow that goes anywhere near 160-180 range.

Keep writing you sound like you have yourself convinced that people of yesteryear were somehow super human and not just us that grew up doing different
things.

I do agree that the atlatl is a much easier weapon to make but not as accurate as a bow, but like a bow it's more about the projectile than the launcher.
 
Reproductions of the Mary Rose bows using high altitude wood show most were over 130 pounds with estimates putting the average draw weight beteween 140-160 pounds. Reproductions using low altitude wood are FAR lower poundage.... Testing on the Mary Rose bows shows they are all high altitude wood which led to early estimations of poundage being vastly underestimated as most modern bows are made from low alt wood.
I could also point out that BEFORE the Mary Rose 80-90 pounds was cited by many as the max poundage of English warbows.

However its not my job to convince you on slings, bows or anything else, anyone can do a quick search and read multiple studies and published papers about the Mary Rose. Studies of modern 160-180 pound CONFIRMED archers and even scans of there skeletons showing they have the same deformities as English archers of old.

As it is I see no point of further discussion about slings or bows.

What I would love to see is some people chrono Atlatl darts give the weight so we can work out a general amount of force they hit with.

The first time I read an article about the Mary Rose was in the early 80s in a magazine article in a dentist office. I remember thinking it was a big deal because of the poundage of the bows, back then it was 120 or so. Now it's 140-160. At that rate in ten or fifteen years it'll be 200-220.

I guess anything's possible, except, I could be wrong, but they didn't have fast flight or Dacron string material, I don't think.

What I'm saying is, sometimes you are limited by the materials at hand. Like string material, or low altitude bow wood.

20 years ago Traditional archer did an article on natural fiber for bow strings, not a lot out there that would hold more than a hundred pounds, at least consistently, (and be bow string like instead of rope like) say like you would have to have on a war implement.

I know they used linen and flax laid parallel and glued with only a partial twist but it can only go so far before it snaps.

You got me, I'm convinced, enjoy;)
 
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Her you go, usually people slinging darts everyday, and making them.

Aug 29-31

Flint Ridge Lithic Society Knap-in, Flint Ridge State Park Brownsville, Ohio.
ISAC and Ohio Atlatl Asociation local events. Lots of booths, flintknapping and crafts. Contact Steve Barnett barnz@juno.com (740) 698-6553 or Ray Strischek ohioatlatl@hotmail.com (740)331-4351
 
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