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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Ats-34
- Thread starter samwereb
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 28, 1998
- Messages
- 702
I use almost purely RWL-34 and Damasteel......only when I need a special size I go for ATS-34.....But as I am located in Denmark the prize for RWL-34 for me is less than ATS-34.
I like it alot and takes a much better edge than ATS-34. It holds it longer and it is tougher. I still lke ATS-34 though.
I like it alot and takes a much better edge than ATS-34. It holds it longer and it is tougher. I still lke ATS-34 though.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 3,625
I like 154CM and ATS-34 they are fine for me. Oh and they are good enough for Strider Knives... Enough said!
However my personal fav are Double High Carbon Damascus, M2, CPM 10V and BG-42.
However my personal fav are Double High Carbon Damascus, M2, CPM 10V and BG-42.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 1,218
I'll take 154CM over ATS-34 any day of the week for the peace of mind in buying American, for god's sake, Bethlehem Steel just filed for bankruptcy, the American Steel industry is dying, SUPPORT IT!
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
Jerry,
Since you're done with your first(?) knife in S30V, which to my understanding is a stainless verion of CPM3V(which in turn is an excellent steel, thank you again for UR blades
), may be you could tell us a word or two about that? How does it compare to CPM 3V or if it's closer to something else...
Since you're done with your first(?) knife in S30V, which to my understanding is a stainless verion of CPM3V(which in turn is an excellent steel, thank you again for UR blades
), may be you could tell us a word or two about that? How does it compare to CPM 3V or if it's closer to something else...
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
Hi Gator, I'm glad you still like your blades. S30V will have about the same wear resistance as 3V, a bit better than D2, but only about half the impact toughness, which still puts it in the "tough" category. There is a whole lot to like about this new steel. Ask me again after I get through destroying a couple blades though.
On the ugly side, but mostly for us knifemakers, is that it is no fun to grind, and that was before it was even hardenend! While the steel costs about the same as 154CM (Crucible deserves a pat on their corporate back for the pricing on S30V), it is about twice as much work for the maker, so there will definitely be some premiums in knife cost.
Bottom line: It's well worth keeping an eye on how this steel does in the real world. I predict good things for it.
On the ugly side, but mostly for us knifemakers, is that it is no fun to grind, and that was before it was even hardenend! While the steel costs about the same as 154CM (Crucible deserves a pat on their corporate back for the pricing on S30V), it is about twice as much work for the maker, so there will definitely be some premiums in knife cost.
Bottom line: It's well worth keeping an eye on how this steel does in the real world. I predict good things for it.
I understood this thread okay(not being a metallurgist and all), but one of my friends at work has got me to thinking. Are we not rapidly reaching the point of diminishing returns? I mean, aside from the POS blades out there, in real world use how much better is steel "X" over steel "Y"? Can the average user even tell the difference? I guess this is like anything else, the more you know about any topic, the more complicated it gets. I guess I'm showing my ignorance. FWIW, my EDC is BM710 M2HSS.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
The steel can define the grind to a large extent. If you can't tell the difference between an average steel and a super steel, then the super steel likely hasn't been used to its full advantage. CPM-3V for example allows finer edges and thinner, lighter blades having the same strength as a heavier blade in a lesser steel.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
Hi Jerry,
Originally posted by Jerry Hossom
Hi Gator, I'm glad you still like your blades.
Nah, it's like the more I have them the more I like them
S30V sounds real interesting. Hope you're gonna start taking orders soon huh?
P.S. Here they are if you forgot them
<A HREF="http://zvis.com/knives/knimgtmpl.shtml?http://zvis.com/images/knives/custom/hossompr.jpg"><IMG SRC="http://zvis.com/images/knives/custom/hossompri.jpg"></A>
Really by how much? I have not used 3V that is one I don't have. However in normal use I have a hard time believing there is a large difference. In fact I remeber one very well respected maker posting that he has gotten better performance out of D2 than 3v on a thin blade with a thin edge.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
I'd say he had a heat treating problem then. 3V is difficult to heat treat, but it is superior to D2 in almost every respect IMHO. There are a quite a few "well respected makers" who like it.
I know you and DDR disagree on 3V but I don't think DDR has a problem with heat treating.
http://www.knifeforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=62&t=000967
Like i said I haven't tried 3v however I am talking about normal use, and have a hard time believing there is a large difference. I just may get a 3V blade one day to see for myself I have a hard time believing things unless I try them for myself. Now in exstreme cases there may be a difference. But a large diff? I know that I am just a user not a tester and so far the differences in the super steels have not been great.
http://www.knifeforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=62&t=000967
Like i said I haven't tried 3v however I am talking about normal use, and have a hard time believing there is a large difference. I just may get a 3V blade one day to see for myself I have a hard time believing things unless I try them for myself. Now in exstreme cases there may be a difference. But a large diff? I know that I am just a user not a tester and so far the differences in the super steels have not been great.
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- Aug 1, 1999
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- 3,036
DB, it may well be that what you call "normal use" has no need for the attributes of 3V.
- Joined
- Nov 6, 1999
- Messages
- 2,639
And there we have the basis for the 'diminishing returns' argument.
Some of the new crucible steels are very very good as knife steels, balancing the complex matrix of physical qualities that make up the 'ideal' knife.
But in a small folder, outrageous toughness is probably not going to be required, and going to great lengths to differentially heat-treat a small blade will do nothing to enhance its performance in the real world, and will add a lot of unnecessary expense. There are a great many considerations that should be going into a makers and a customers choice of blade steel.
All of these discussions of the Best steel Must be tempered by an understanding of the balancing act that a knife maker striving to achieve in his final product. The choice of blade steels for a knife will always be influenced by base cost, ease of shaping and finishing (labor cost), the size and grind of the blade, it's intended use, the customers need for the 'ultimate' in blade steels.
I am interested in 3V and its stainless variant 30V. I am glad folks like Jerry are trying to push the boundaries of blade performance by experimenting with the new materials. I also appreciate that the ABS has been encouraging folks to do the same with the same ol' materials. They all can be made to work exceptionally well as knife blades. I love my carbon steel blades and favor 52100. But I also like my 420V bladed small folders.
My point is to remind everyone that the search for the Best steel will be never ending. There are LOTS of steels out there already which are cheaper, easier to work, stain-resistant, small grained, tough, and make outstanding knife blades. One could argue that something like Sandvik 12C27 strikes the ideal balance point among something conflicting properties for knife steels.
There will always be makers and customers interested in pushing the envelop and trying to get that last drop of performance out of a steel. But for most of us, we don't always need or want to pay for the 'ultimate' steel. For those sort of knives, ATS34 and the like strike a good balance between workability, performance, and cost. Just because there is a new super steel like 3V around does not diminish the practicality and utility of your 'ATS34' type blades.
Para
Some of the new crucible steels are very very good as knife steels, balancing the complex matrix of physical qualities that make up the 'ideal' knife.
But in a small folder, outrageous toughness is probably not going to be required, and going to great lengths to differentially heat-treat a small blade will do nothing to enhance its performance in the real world, and will add a lot of unnecessary expense. There are a great many considerations that should be going into a makers and a customers choice of blade steel.
All of these discussions of the Best steel Must be tempered by an understanding of the balancing act that a knife maker striving to achieve in his final product. The choice of blade steels for a knife will always be influenced by base cost, ease of shaping and finishing (labor cost), the size and grind of the blade, it's intended use, the customers need for the 'ultimate' in blade steels.
I am interested in 3V and its stainless variant 30V. I am glad folks like Jerry are trying to push the boundaries of blade performance by experimenting with the new materials. I also appreciate that the ABS has been encouraging folks to do the same with the same ol' materials. They all can be made to work exceptionally well as knife blades. I love my carbon steel blades and favor 52100. But I also like my 420V bladed small folders.
My point is to remind everyone that the search for the Best steel will be never ending. There are LOTS of steels out there already which are cheaper, easier to work, stain-resistant, small grained, tough, and make outstanding knife blades. One could argue that something like Sandvik 12C27 strikes the ideal balance point among something conflicting properties for knife steels.
There will always be makers and customers interested in pushing the envelop and trying to get that last drop of performance out of a steel. But for most of us, we don't always need or want to pay for the 'ultimate' steel. For those sort of knives, ATS34 and the like strike a good balance between workability, performance, and cost. Just because there is a new super steel like 3V around does not diminish the practicality and utility of your 'ATS34' type blades.
Para
That may be how ever I am not assumeing that at all. It may also be just the stuff I am looking for, I don't know never tried it. I also don't discount how well some can heat treat some of the other steels. I have a few blades made out of 52100 d2 and a few others that are just amazing and to best them will be a hard task for any steel.
As I said before I believe how the blade is ground makes nore of a difference than the steel assumeing the steel is one of the better steels.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 3,625
Well I have a 10" Spearpoint custom in CPM10V @Rc59.5 Paul Bos
Convex 20 degree per side angle
Made from 1/4 inch stock.
I have now used it hard in tests twice now.
My most recent use was the other day, I used it with my Gerber sport axe sharpened to the same angle. I cut the same wood at the same force and guess what?
The axe was noticibly blunter after an hours mad chopping and the edge noticably deformed in three places. The fixed blade was still shaving sharp across most of its length and only at the point that recieved the most impacts was there any sign of damage! A small dull spot about 3/4 of a cm long. I stropped using my Spyderco fine stone first. This straightened the damage right away. The edge had folded rather than fractured. ten passes on the white step four stones and a couple of mins with a leather belt (slack style) with Chrome polish and the edge was scary popping sharp again. The axe took a couple of mins more and again shaved.
NO RUST in both uses and heck it WAS WET!
I am guessing that the axe blade was 440a or 12c27 steel and they have a rep for great toughness but perhaps are lacking in some strength? Not hardened enough?
Well CPM 10V is the last steel most would recommend for a very large and heavy blade. It bloody works a treat! Use it for straight cutting and this thing just cuts and cuts and cuts! Never seen anything like it!
I also own a 6-1/4 inch Puma Cougar fixed blade in 1/4 154CM stock. It is Rc-62-64 and yet chops and cuts with aplom. No problems with toughness or strength with this knife either. Oh and I BASH my blades when I test them. My view is test beyond what is likely and you will be able to trust the knife day to day. I do this with my own blades BTW.
I honestly am starting to think that the difference between a good heat treat on a steel like 440a and a poor one on 154CM can make both steel similar if not identical in performance terms! So many claimed 154CM/ATS-34 were poor steels (as they were brittle) for larger blades. I remember one person who shall remain unamed commenting that he expected to see some daft axe in 154CM at some point as people simply did not understand steels and their uses.
Give Paul Bos ATS-34 and look what he can do. Anyone call Strider knives weak? No I thought not.
Convex 20 degree per side angle
Made from 1/4 inch stock.
I have now used it hard in tests twice now.
My most recent use was the other day, I used it with my Gerber sport axe sharpened to the same angle. I cut the same wood at the same force and guess what?
The axe was noticibly blunter after an hours mad chopping and the edge noticably deformed in three places. The fixed blade was still shaving sharp across most of its length and only at the point that recieved the most impacts was there any sign of damage! A small dull spot about 3/4 of a cm long. I stropped using my Spyderco fine stone first. This straightened the damage right away. The edge had folded rather than fractured. ten passes on the white step four stones and a couple of mins with a leather belt (slack style) with Chrome polish and the edge was scary popping sharp again. The axe took a couple of mins more and again shaved.
NO RUST in both uses and heck it WAS WET!
I am guessing that the axe blade was 440a or 12c27 steel and they have a rep for great toughness but perhaps are lacking in some strength? Not hardened enough?
Well CPM 10V is the last steel most would recommend for a very large and heavy blade. It bloody works a treat! Use it for straight cutting and this thing just cuts and cuts and cuts! Never seen anything like it!
I also own a 6-1/4 inch Puma Cougar fixed blade in 1/4 154CM stock. It is Rc-62-64 and yet chops and cuts with aplom. No problems with toughness or strength with this knife either. Oh and I BASH my blades when I test them. My view is test beyond what is likely and you will be able to trust the knife day to day. I do this with my own blades BTW.
I honestly am starting to think that the difference between a good heat treat on a steel like 440a and a poor one on 154CM can make both steel similar if not identical in performance terms! So many claimed 154CM/ATS-34 were poor steels (as they were brittle) for larger blades. I remember one person who shall remain unamed commenting that he expected to see some daft axe in 154CM at some point as people simply did not understand steels and their uses.
Give Paul Bos ATS-34 and look what he can do. Anyone call Strider knives weak? No I thought not.