ATS-55 and rust, are they supposed to do this?

The General

The General

Joined
Jun 6, 2000
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First things first- This is something that has been mentioned by me in passing in the past, as a result of a thread in the General section, I wanted to bring this up as it has been bothering me for some time. I want to find out if I am doing something wrong here?
I am not here to say ATS-55 suxs as the other thread claimed, I think it is a VERY good steel, but the rusting problems I have are something I want to talk about.

Here is my argument-

1. ATS-55 was intended to give the preformance of ATS-34 without costing as much by dropping the high speed elements and adding other stuff. This is a comendable act, I don't want AUS6 in my FRN Delica/Endura.
2. My ATS-34 and 154CM blades have NEVER given me any problems with rust. I use this steel as an example as it is the most similar to ATS-55. For the recorn neither have my 1095, 440c,1075, M2, BG-42, VG-10 or CPM 440V blades only D2 tool steel and one problem with my AUS 10 Native II.
3. Yes I know all about stain-LESS and yes I know how to look after a knife with oils (I use 3-1 and Militec-1, Tuf Glide and Tuf Cloth (Marine of course
:rolleyes: )

Here is my problem, ALL my Spyderco knives made from ATS-55 have rusted in a manner only seen with my D2 blades. This worries me slightly for a number of reasons.

1. If ATS-55 is similar to ATS-34, then why does it rust where ATS-34 does not? ATS-55 has slightly less carbon and aught to resist rust far better than a steel like D2 which has 50% MORE carbon and less Chromium. It aught to resist rust slightly better than ATS-34/154CM on paper as well?
2. I have no 'issue' with the edge holding of ATS-55, or the great edge it will take.
3. I was amazed how quickly ATS-55 will go from surface spots to full blown pitting as seen on my new Matriarch which has sat clipped to my inside pocket of my leather coat. Never used and with a good coat of Marine Sentry Tuf Cloth on it. I had to use a gun polish to remove the rust and have re-coated the knife. The same happened with my Endura and a slight sheen of rust was noticable on my new Blue Delica around the opening hole. I have cleaned them up and protected them again, but the Endura has been doing this for a few years now. I expected this from my D2 Tool steel folder and it does rust about the same.

Simple questions then Sal, is this normal for ATS-55? I read somewhere that it aought to be similar if not better than ATS-34 for rust resistance. Is it normal to rust like D2 steel? D2 steel is classified as a semi-stainless (by many) and to be frank, that is where ATS-55 stands in my eyes from three years of use. Am I wrong?

To everyone else, have you had this happen as well?
 
I realize that this is a YMMV kind of issue, but I've never had any rust on my ATS-55 Spydies (of which I own several). In fact, my lightweight Cricket often rides in the waistband of my sweats, after I leave the gym -- read hot, sweaty environment. No rust.

As it happens, the only Spydie of mine that's ever shown any rust is my Navigator (on the inside of the Spydie hole), and Gin-1 is supposed to have better stain resistance than ATS-55. Go figure.

Sometimes I wonder about all the rust that gets reported. Back when I was a kid, my pocketknives had carbon steel blades. I certainly made no special effort to clean, oil, or otherwise protect the blades from moisture (okay, forget the word special -- no effort at all other than wiping the blade off). Yet, somehow, rust was never a major problem. Maybe some surface discoloration if I absolutely abused the knife, but a little quick work with fine sandpaper always took care of the problem.

But, like I said, YMMV.
 
General, Could there be something from the tanning or leather in your coat that causes the rusting? I have not had any rusting problems with ATS-55 at all. I have had some rust spots develop on some other brands of ATS-34 blades that had a bead blasted finish. Since this has occured on more that one of your knives with this steel it isn't likely to be a bad batch of steel or heat treat?
 
general...talk with mike payne about the rusting of ats-55.....his delica with a ats-55 blade rusted daily while he worked and he had to clean off the rust every night even if he put all sorts of preventitives on the blade.....give him an email and see what he has to say....he wasnt very impressed with the rust problem or the steel's ability (or lack of ability) to hold an edge well for him at work for ups...i too have only owned one blade with ats-55 steel and was not impressed at all with this particular steel in terms of rust resistance and edge holding (this was before i evr met mike payne or knew he had a blade made of ats-55..thanks....feverdoc
 
I have this problem also. In fact my very first post here was called "Spyderco ATS-55 Sucks!!!" I bring my Delica to work everyday and have to clean rust off of the blade everyday. The clip, which has chipped paint, never rusts? I have slight pitting on the blade and rusts builds up around the inside of the thumb hole. I really think this is a problem that should be delt with. My new Endura stainless has AUS-6 and I hope that does not rust as much.
 
ATS-34 isn't exactly the most stainless steel around either. I consider ATS-34 and ATS-55 to be barely stainless.
 
Thanks for the feedback gentlemen.

Shmackey, I agree with you on the stainless part of the ATS-34 blades one of my traded 154CM steel knives was rusted (from owner, not my use), but no problems since for me. For all that I have never had any probs with ATS-34 or 154CM.

feverdoc, my Delica is from Mike! My rusting is not on the same scale as what you say, but...:confused: . Here is something that also prompted me to ask this question- quite a few have no problems and a minority like me find it much harder than normal to keep this steel rust free.

Ed I had considered the possibility that the leather coat had caused something to happen, the only thing that sprang to mind was that in the inside pocket it is near your arm pits and a lot of sweat. Add to that the rather high humidity we have been having and it is possible that the knife was attacked this way. I had considered all this, however other knives stored in the same place in the same way at the time in similar conditions have NOT shown any problems. I will e-mail Mike and see what he found, otherwise feel free to point him this way.

Toolin in fairness most high carbon steels that are called 'stainless' will rust quite easily. The high carbon causes this. However all I am saying is I think the rust suseptability of ATS-55 is unusually high for a steel similar to a number of other steels which I also own and have nothing like the same trouble with.

As I said before, I can live with the rust problems as the knife holds a good edge and takes a great edge with ease. However it puzzled me that others had no problems and I did:confused: . Lets be honest now, its not like I am some chimp that does not know how to look after a knife or went salt water diving with a CPM 10V knife is it?:p
 
I personally don't have much experience with ATS-55, so I can't really comment. However, it seems that there are more than a few people who believe that ATS-55 doesn't resist corrosion as well as other stainless steels.

In my experience, ATS-34 doesn't "stain" like true carbon steel, but it does seem to be somewhat susceptible to corrosion. ATS-55 is very similar to ATS-34, but it has quite a bit less molybdenum than ATS-34. Some references state that molybdenum helps to resist corrosion, so perhaps ATS-55 suffers because it has so little of it.
 
cerulean, that is a very good point. From memory ATS-55 contains Copper and Cobalt? This was supposed to improve the edge holding and retain the ability to resist rust? Still you drop that much Moly you have to expect changes.
 
Whether or not ATS-55 suxs I cannot say from experience, but it sure rusts!!!

I have two knives made of ATS-55, both Spydercos. I have a partially serrated Provenator (by favorite bagel knife) and a Matriarch. The Provenator is used daily to cut bagels and is not longer carried (as the wife has seemed to "laid claim" to it.

The Matriach has never cut anything! It has been wiped and coated with oil often but not everytime it is carried. After reading this post I went to check on it and there was already rust specks where a fingerprint was left on the blade!!!

I have had this particular knife a very short time, never used it for anything and a fingerprint that is only a day or so old is already starting rust???????!!!!!!!!!

I do not have sufficient experience with using these knives to comment on their edge holding, ruggedness, etcetera, but I have already put ATS-55 on my list of steels to avoid!
 
Interesting threads on ATS-55 lately! I'm interested in hearing what Spyderco's own testing predicts in this regard.

Note that you can't really just predict beforehand exactly how a steel will behave after you muck with the alloying elements. Sometimes it works out the way you wanted, sometimes it didn't. Let's focus in on the chromium for a minute. It's free chromium that helps with rust resistance. Chromium tied up in carbides does not help at all with rust resistance, but does help with wear resistance. We know that heat treatment has a big effect on carbide formation, and perhaps a slight change in heat treat is causing more of the chromium in ATS-55 to form carbides, than in ATS-34, so in ATS-55 there's less free chromium for rust resistance. More importantly, it's perhaps natural that with another carbide former, molybdenum, gone, there are no other elements to form carbides with but chromium. So perhaps what we have in the end is that there's less free chromium in ATS-55 so it rusts more, and its carbides are softer chromium carbides rather than harder moly carbides, so it nevertheless won't hold an edge better either.

Sal, any comments on how much free chromium remains in ATS-34 with your heat treat, versus your ATS-55?

Joe
 
I will add that although I love the overall performance of ATS-55, I, too, find it a bit more susceptible to staining. I often will find little rust spots around the thumbhole, or on the part of the blade near the spine that's exposed when the knife is closed. I occasionally must wipe these areas down with 0000-grade steel wool and mineral oil to remove the rust. It seems to me that Marine Tuf-Cloth or other corrosion preventives do not always prevent corrosion from starting.

Although I've never experienced any pitting (I usually will wipe down a blade when I start noticing spots on it). I've had other ATS-55 blades that seem less prone to rust spots, too.

I find that oftentimes, my Benchmade ATS-34, satin-finished blades, while they tend to develop rust spots less easily, mine tend to discolor a bit in the same areas that my Spyderco ATS-55 blades do.
Jim
 
I have had my Delica for 2 yrs, and only have a single spot on it.
The inside of the 'R' on spyderco.

I wiped it down when I noticed it last year. I haven't buffed it out, but could use my dremel on it.

ATS-55 hasn't given me any problems. I always oil my knives regularly, sometimes daily, depending on usage.
 
Well, I've been carrying my Endura to work with me for the past couple of weeks, and have noticed no rusting other than a spot here or there. And this is a knife, that if it isn't directly exposed to salt water, it is exposed to salty air. I'll dry it off with a salty rag, spritz a little Wd-40 on it, and just stick it back in the pocket with no ill effects. Just my experience with it..

Chris.
 
man i have a 154cm socom elite that rusted like an old fish hook just from being in my pocket at work. no salt water environment, nothign.
 
I've been wondering about this lately as well, although mostly with ATS-34 blades.

For example, the difference between my REKAT Pioneer II and my BM 710 (both ATS-34). MY 710 will rust and stain like crazy, unless I'm oil it and clean it EVERY day I carry it. My pioneer II has not shown a single spot of rust yet, and I haven't been keeping it oiled AT ALL. Why is this? Is it the finish - the 710 has a satin finish, the REKAT a bead blast? So far this summer, I've pulled the REKAT out of my waistband, and found it dripping with sweat, yet no rust. My BM 710 can be mildly damp, and be covered in rust. The 710 gets special treatment, the Pioneer II does not. When I take really good care of it, the 710 won't rust, but it's a bit of a pain.

Similarly, my ATS-55 harpy with a satin finish will barely rust. I take pretty good care of it, yet - no rust. I had a spyderco standard in ATS-55, which would rust very rapidly. Same steel, same finish, same company, different results? My ATS-55 Civilian hasn't shown any sign of rust yet. Neither has my new Delica. It's hard to say if they will.

Maybe there's something in the process or during use that changes the outside layer of steel? I don't know. Either way, rust is no fun.
-- Rob
 
Rob - take that Pioneer apart. I just took my Carny Cub apart and found rust on the liners.

I have two ATS-55 Spydies, a Harpy which has seen daily carry for months, and a Cricket which hasn't been carried at all. Neither has been Tuff-Clothed in recent memory, and not a hint of rust on either. The edge on the Harpy does seem to roll pretty easily though. I'd love to see one in some kind of super steel.
 
Originally posted by Joe Talmadge
...it's perhaps natural that with another carbide former, molybdenum, gone, there are no other elements to form carbides with but chromium. So perhaps what we have in the end is that there's less free chromium in ATS-55 so it rusts more, and its carbides are softer chromium carbides rather than harder moly carbides, so it nevertheless won't hold an edge better either.
Click to expand...

Joe Talmadge's thoughts mirror mine exactly. (that could be construed as an insult to Joe ;) )

If ATS-55 rusts but holds an edge well, it very well may be per Joe's post as to what is going on vs. ATS-34.

If your ATS-55 rusts and also does not hold an edge well, the heat treat was probably blown on that batch.

Many stainless steels (most?) rust easily before heat treat. Why? I dunno...haven't read anything on that or figured it out. It's a thin layer of chromium oxide (CrO2) on the surface of a blade that resists normal oxidation/rust. Indeed, "free" chrome is required to oxidize on surface to make CrO2.
 
...and in theory, bead blasting, unless the beads are very fine, would tend to hold moisture and tend toward rust more easily than a mirror polished blade.

A truly brushed finished, i.e. one at 400 or 600 grit with visible super fine scratch lines, will do the same.

Satin is a term used for both "brushed" and a bunch of other approaches to finish. Just depends on whether there are any pits or trenches to hold moisture and invite iron oxidation.

Those same pits/trenches will also hold oil if you strip them dry with solvent and oil the blade.

The Parkerized finish on firearms (not my fav in terms of aesthetics) tends to work the same way, as that surface oxidation layer created by Parkerizing is a bit like bead blast...lots of tiny pores, and it holds oil nicely after you wipe it down, without feeling oily.
 
Originally posted by baraqyal
For example, the difference between my REKAT Pioneer II and my BM 710 (both ATS-34). MY 710 will rust and stain like crazy, unless I'm oil it and clean it EVERY day I carry it. My pioneer II has not shown a single spot of rust yet, and I haven't been keeping it oiled AT ALL. Why is this? Is it the finish - the 710 has a satin finish, the REKAT a bead blast?
Click to expand...

Well, that's weird to say the least. Bead blasting makes a blade very prone to rusting. In fact, even a steel that is very rust resistant, like 6A, can become prone to rusting if bead blasted. On the other hand, your 710, with a satin finish, should avoid rusting much much more. My 710, which I almost perform almost no care on other than wiping with a dirty t-shirt now and then, does not rust at all. I'll sweat on the blade and just wipe it off later with a t-shirt, I'll wipe things off the blade with my fingers and leave the oils on, etc. No rust! Your situation is difficult to explain unless, as rdangerer said, the heat treat was blown on the 710. How is it holding an edge for you? I've got mine down to 15-degree bevels, it holds an edge great, no problems with chipping or indenting.


Joe
 
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