ATS-55 and rust, are they supposed to do this?

This is very strange. I work at an autoparts store. Part of our uniform are black polyester pants. This is a large chain that I work for, I mention this because anyone that has worked for a large corporation will understand this. The thermostats have to be kept at 78 degrees in the summer and 65 in the winter. If they catch anyone in the stores messing with the themostats you can get fired. Period. Someone higher up has figured out that anything lower in the summer and higher in the winter costs WAY too much money, so we have this policy. And, the entire front of the store is nothing but floor-to-ceiling windows, facing the east no less. So you get the sun shining in ALL day long. What I am getting at is that it gets very hot in that store in the summer. Add in unloading 14 pallets of freight from a semi and then busting a** to put said freight up in 24 hours, (and in those polyester black pants) you sweat a ton. We're talking batteries (35 to 45 pounds each) drums and rotors (45 to 60 pounds each) starters, air conditioning compressors.....well you get the drift. I have carried my ATS-55 Delica for 2 years in this environment and have never had even a tiny bit of rust on the blade. I have pulled it out of my pocket to open up a box and have had to wipe it down first, it is so soaking wet with sweat. Maybe I got part of a good batch, but I have rotated a plain-edge, 50/50 edge, and fully serrated Delica during those 2 years and have never seen a speck on any of them. And these three knives were purchased from 3 different sources at different times. My assistant manager on the other hand carries an Endura and has found a couple of specks on it, but nothing more. Maybe it has to do with an individual's body chemistry reacting with the steel? Or is that too far fetched an idea?


Flinx
 
Well, that's weird to say the least. Bead blasting makes a blade very prone to rusting. In fact, even a steel that is very rust resistant, like 6A, can become prone to rusting if bead blasted. On the other hand, your 710, with a satin finish, should avoid rusting much much more. My 710, which I almost perform almost no care on other than wiping with a dirty t-shirt now and then, does not rust at all. I'll sweat on the blade and just wipe it off later with a t-shirt, I'll wipe things off the blade with my fingers and leave the oils on, etc. No rust! Your situation is difficult to explain unless, as rdangerer said, the heat treat was blown on the 710. How is it holding an edge for you? I've got mine down to 15-degree bevels, it holds an edge great, no problems with chipping or indenting.
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I don't know how to explain it either. The 710 holds a lovely edge, and seems to last a long time. Although, honestly, I haven't really beaten on it enough to be 100% sure, but it feels significantly better than my AUS 8 blades, and other "lower" steels. Most of the rust occurs near the spine. Maybe the heat treat didn't cover the spine well enough? I don't know. I was under the impression that bead blast finishes rust quickly - my CRKT kiss is an unstopable rust monster.

I pulled apart my Pioneer II to see if the liners are rusting. Under the G10, it was wet and dirty, but no rust at all. Maybe I have a magic Pioneer II? I did find a little tiny bit of rust - on the thumb stud. Pretty strange. I think the heat treat theory sounds pretty probable. Perhaps my 710 was just unlucky during heat treat.
-- Rob
 
I've also got some ATS-34 knives that rust and some that don't. I think that the heat treat is extremely important, and it probably can account for big differences in stain resistance.

As someone pointed out earlier, high carbon stainless steels aren't actually stainless at all when annealed. My understanding is that the austenitizing process dissolves carbide, which frees up chromium so it can be used for stain resistance.

There are probably a lot of little tricks makers can use during heat treatment to get more free chromium into the final matrix. If the heat treat isn't just right, you might be left with a steel that has less than 11.5 percent free chromium, and isn't truely stainless.
 
This has been a very interesting and enlightening thread. Thank you gentlemen for adding to this discussion. Your comments have struck me in a number of ways, but the most important one seems to me that many have NOT had problems, but some of us HAVE, quite a few it seems.

Now the edge holding on mine have been what I expected from a ATS-34 style steel, very good, perhaps not quite as good as 154CM/ATS-34, but darn close! I don't think it is the heat treat being wrong on some knives, but possibly what Joe said about free Chromium. What I really want now is Sal's testing results on this steel!:)

As I said before, if this steel is a little rusty, but gives a good performance I can live with that;) ! Better hold an edge than not rust in my book! :rolleyes:
 
There is another possibility. Different production batches are certainly going to have different compositions by some amount.

Example: The specs for AUS-8 from Spyderco's page look like this:

Carbon = 0.7 - 0.75%
Chrome = 13.0 - 14.5%
Moly = 0.1 - 0.3%
Vanad = 0.1 - 0.26%

While I don't have a true specification for ATS-34, I suspect there is an acceptable range of values for chrome and carbon for ATS-34 as there is for AUS-8.

In fact, I did materials testing on a couple ATS-34 blades, and the nuclear source analyzer came up with chrome in the low 13% range (Spyderco charts says ATS-34 is supposed to be 14% chrome).

Recall that D2 runs between 11% and 13% by it's spec.

If you are a steel producer, and the spec allows between 13.0% and 14.0% chrome, and chrome is expensive, are you going to try for 13.0% to 13.2% or thereabouts without dipping down to 12.95% so your batches aren't rejected by QA/QC? Probably. Are you going to hit batches in the 13.5% or 13.7% range sometimes. Maybe.

Analogy: The refiners that are good at blending gasoline (most are pretty good these days) don't give away much octane, as octane is expensive to produce in the refineries. That 93 you buy is 93.02 or 93.05 octane, and by threat of the state inspection types who scrutinize for a living, never 92.9 octane (very expensive when shipments are rejected at 93 and have to be downgraded to 89). And 93 isn't 93.8 octane either, I promise you that. Not very often anyway. But I don't know how good the steel producers are at variability mgmt.

Point: batches will vary, and heat treat techniques and batch consistency is also going to vary, especially at production houses. Big furnaces have hot spots and cold spots.

It is also possible that slightly off-spec batches of ATS-34 or 154CM could (this is purely speculation on my part) be routed to higher tolerance business uses. If aerospace engines/turbines require a tighter spec, and they inspect the batches closely w/ materials analyzers, the out of tolerance stuff could be routed to knives and other blade materials, etc.

To quote the great philsopher Punch (as in Judy): "Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances."
 
Point: batches will vary, and heat treat techniques and batch consistency is also going to vary, especially at
production houses. Big furnaces have hot spots and cold spots.
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I've always guessed that production-sized heat treats were the big issue whenever I heard about vastly different experiences with the same steel from the same company. As you point out, furnaces don't have the same temperature everywhere, and in particular I assume the knives that are closer to the walls differ from the ones in the center, and if there's multiple tiers, top ones differ from bottom ones. Same comments when the knives cool down.

Sometimes, it's obvious that the heat treatment was just plain blown, or there was a problem introduced into the steel from the manufacturer. But usually I'd bet you're right, it's subtle differences in heat treat batches and steel makeup that are the difference. Some steels have multiple manufacturers, and I do know knifemakers who have tested out the same steel from different manufacturers, but will only buy from one particular manufacturer, due to what they feel is a more consistent product.

Joe
 
I guess I don't work my Standard enough. In spite of carrying it IWB this summer, indoors and out, temps up in the 90's so plenty of sweat, no rust or discoloration. And it seems to hold its edge quite well. ATS-55 definitely works OK for me. I mean, it's nothing to write home about, but neither are most of the other steels that I have used.
 
No problems to report here either.

In ATS-55, I've had a Standard, a Rookie (sold it without using it so it doesn't count), a CF Dragonfly, and a Wayne Goddard LW. Still have the Standard and the Wayne Goddard, which get quite a bit of use. I've had the Goddard in my pocket all summer. Sometimes jog with it. No rust so far.

When my knives do get wet though, I dry them off, let them air dry a little, and then wipe them down with a Tuff Cloth.
 
After reading these informative posts I have developed a cynical theory. My ATS-55 ProVenator shows NO RUST, despite more carry and use than my new Matriach. Here's where I'm going with this. Maybe, just maybe the junky ATS-55 is accepted but with a price reduction and put into Matriarchs which aren't figured to be used much for anything. Then if there is a warranty claim, the disclaimer about the Matriach actually being used applies. Maybe Matriarch blades are put near the edges of the furnace because soem blades just have to be near the edge of the furnace of one wants to maximize utility of each batch (spreading your fixed costs over a broader production base).

I hope that my "cyncial theory" is all wet because Spyderco is a respected company and the aboev practices would, if employed, resulted in poor products gettinng out to customers paying for quality. But I do know this, my new Matriarch has started rusting with no provocation!
 
Originally posted by Nimrod
Then if there is a warranty claim, the disclaimer about the Matriach actually being used applies.
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Nimrod, not sure I understand the above comment on the disclaimer... I seek understanding. Does Spyderco publish some legit disclaimer bout Matriarch usage?!?
 
Verrrry interesting!

Here's my experience, from "oldest" to "youngest" knife, examined just now with bright flashlight:

Endura plastic clip G-2: bought in '93 and much abused over the years; I just sharpened it a few days ago!; some light rust spots on blade sides, visible rust in locking area, NO rust on lock spring. This knife is my "pool" knife and I just recently began rinsing it off in tap water after pool use! Lock is tight and it's in better condition than it has a right to be. It must like me.

BM Ascent ATS-34: bought about 2 yrs ago and replaced Endura as EDC for about a year; no rust on blade or lock area; one spot under choil area metal; rusty lockspring (looks like different metal).

Blue LadyBug (ATS-55?): carried on keychain for about a year now--absolutely no rust.

CS Gunsite II AUS-8: it's hiding from me right now :) I can't remember seeing anything bad, was EDC for a few months and has gone swimming a few times with no apparent harm.

Pink Delica ATS-55: maybe four months old, carried a few times, went swimming and developed visible rust within 24 hrs; some light pinpricks of rust on blade; no rust inside or in lock area.

Blue Delica ATS-55: slightly newer than above; no visible rust; went swimming once or twice, but rinsed off in tap water.

Sifu, D-2 Enhanced w/Black T blade finish: several months old; carried fairly regularly; NO WAY IT'S GOING SWIMMING!; DUST, but no rust; never taken apart though! No rust on blade edge.

CRKT small KISS AUS-6 satiny finish: played with a lot; went running as a money/ID clip once; absolutely no rust.

CRKT M-16 13Z AUS-6 heavily beadblast matte: played with; same as above; carried mainly in backpack.

CS Voyager XL AUS-8: went swimming once or twice, but rinsed off immediately; been biking and got very sweaty inside waistband; absolutely no rust.

Native GIN-1: some discoloration in locking pit behind thumb grooves; some in thumb grooves and a bit under lock bar; also in hole. Not sure if this is rust, but probably is; been swimming several times.

Native CPM 440V: newest knife; some discoloration in hole.


Lately, I've used TufGlide on my Delicas and my Endura and my GIN-1 Native. Other than that, I don't do much other than a rinse after pool use.


Multiple variables are probably at work here:

-Heat treat variances

-raw metal composition variances

-individual usage

-personal sweat chemistry differences (I've read about this concerning guns, too)

-??

My preference is for G-2 (GIN-1) or AUS-8. I'm not big on sharpening yet, as I'm still a beginner with my Sharpmaker. ATS-55 is not for the pool, but can survive if taken care of. No way will I take the expensive stuff into the pool (unless it's an emergency).

Karl
 
rdangerer,
Matriarchs come from the factory with a decal on them stated how they are not ultility knives and something along the lines of attempting to use the knife as such will void the warranty. Now we all know that the Matriarch is not a sheetrock knife, sharpened prybar or great firewood chopper at the campsite so one has to wonder about the purpose of that decal. Is it for the idiot who would think that it's much lighter than his Battle Mistress so he will primitive backpack with his Matriarch and chop trees for shelter? I think not.

I like Spyderco knives generally but can not believe how little it took for this steel to rust so quickly.
 
Originally posted by Nimrod
Now we all know that the Matriarch is not a sheetrock knife, sharpened prybar or great firewood chopper at the campsite...
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It looks like it would be a GREAT carpet knife. :D (this place needs a "big evil grin" smiley face. ;) )
 
Here is an update on my Matriarch...

I used a gun polish to remove the rust and double coated it in Marine Sentry Tuf- Cloth. Well I have been protecting it every other day with Tuf Cloth and Tuf Glide to top up the protection even though it has been in its box all the time. Well after over a week of this I figured it aught to be ok to carry a bit. Well the other day in a friends house the knife was produced and five friends took turns to look amazed at it. In total it was handled for some 10 mins. I thin returned it to the top pocket of my rucksack (Vango 35L) which is dry as a bone. The morning after I took out the Matriarch and guess what? It had rust spots! All I can say is flipping heck! Either Tuf Cloth (Marine) is worthless or the contact with fingers for 10 mins was enough to cause this steel to rust. I thought it may have been elements of the rust not removed by myself, but I was VERY careful and have been looking very closely to see if the rust returned.

All I can say is that this steel in my Endura and Matriarch are rusty to the point I know it will rust simply from opening it up. That is WITH Tuf Cloth on it. Now I love Spyderco knives, that goes without saying, none here can claim I have any beef with Spyderco or Sal. They are my favorite company and I respect Sal a LOT. However I don't think I will buy another ATS-55 knife period. I will wait till the VG-10 stuff comes along:D . Serious point though, I am quite dissapointed with ATS-55 for rusting as easily as it has. It is a great shame as in other regards this is a fine steel which I like.

Sal, are they supposed to be this rusty?
 
Originally posted by The General
Now I love Spyderco knives, that goes without saying, none here can claim I have any beef with Spyderco or Sal. They are my favorite company and I respect Sal a LOT. However I don't think I will buy another ATS-55 knife period. I will wait till the VG-10 stuff comes along:D . Serious point though, I am quite dissapointed with ATS-55 for rusting as easily as it has. It is a great shame as in other regards this is a fine steel which I like.

Sal, are they supposed to be this rusty?
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Darn you General, that's pretty much what I wanted to say! :eek:
 
I take care of my knives, but have never required ANY Tuf-Cloth to keep all mine rust-free. Air here must be reasonably devoid of corrosion causing agents, in spite of my living just off the Chesapeake Bay.

Wayne, I can give your Matriarch a good home for a small fee.... :D

(There I go needing that "Big Evil Grin" smiley face again!)
 
Nice try:D :D (double Eeeeeevvviiil grin for ya!)

It would be very good if Sal could add something to this thread, I know you are busy Sal and my Endura did a stirling job cutting up tons of dirty carpet and cutting cans, but it sure does rust! Is this normal? Some here have no problems and others like me find this steel rusts like nothing else. I carried my N7 Opinel 1075 knife without Tuf Cloth this last few days and guess what? NO RUST AT ALL, that was with a lot of opening and closing and fingers all over it, no problems, nada, ziltch. Is is possible the heat treat was duff on some of these ATS-55 blades or is this a noticed problem by Spyderco with this series of steel? :confused:

Thanks all
 
I had a Merlin that rusted so bad I had to go over it with liberally oiled 0000 steel wool wrapped around a toothpick 3-4 times in a 2 week period, DESPITE using Tuf-Cloth. That one was cleaned up & traded off after that.

My 2 Delicas that I got right after the 98s were released have nary a speck on them, and one of them has been a daily carry item since I got it.

I got an LCC D/A (154CM) that had rust inside it fresh out of the box.

I'm not a fan of any ATS- or CM-class steels without a protective coating, and my new neck knife (spec'd for ATS-34 by the designer) will be in Talonite. For conventional steels, I'd rather have AUS8, AUS10, GIN-1, or (blech) AUS6 in a satin finish. 'Nuff said.
 
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