Attaching a norse hawk and trail hawk to handles??

[SlackStatic]

Alright so handles are already sanded down very smoothy, inside of of the eye of the hawks is also sanded and deburred. The goal is to attach the heads using epoxy. Can anyone (Vector001) chime in on how you would go about doing that? I know it it sometimes frowned upon, but hey if the handle breaks, Ill just sand out the eye and try again.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[2manyknives]

I've done it with a Trail Hawk and it worked for me. I don't use it for throwing but it has stood up well to chopping over a year or so.

Think of the epoxy as bedding, not as glue.

Start with a quality epoxy. I use a marine expoxy that I also use for amateur wooden boat building. Stay away from the 5 minute stuff.

Make sure the surfaces are clean and degreased. Put some unthinned epoxy on the wood section that will fit inside the head. Let it go off - this is to stop the wood soaking up the epoxy later.

When it is tacky mix up some thickened epoxy - thicken it with decent glue powder that you can get from fibreglass supply places. Pack some inside the head - make sure the inside of the hole is well covered. Fit the handle into place. Wipe of any excess. Let it dry and harden properly for at least 24 hours.

Don't worry if you break a handle - heat the head and the epoxy will let go. A heat gun or the oven at home is good enough. You don't need to get it hot enough to affect heat treatment. Epoxy breaks down at temperatures below this.

 

[SlackStatic]

Thanks man, I already purchased the "5 min stuff" Its the one from gorilla glue, I read a ton of reviews and this one shined through on all the tests as far as impact and pulling strength were concerned.

This is what I got

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs..._mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D24X-_-100670610

The only marine epoxy I found was stuff that had good under water applications, but on the materials list it said mainly plastics, and fiberglass, no wood or metal on there.

So from an idiots guide standpoint, could I say just put a bunch of this epoxy where the head is going, then pound the head on as high as it will go, then clean up any excess? I want a good tight solid hold, but I really have no idea when it comes to epoxies. Like the glue powders from fiberglass places thats just awesome but have no idea where to go for that.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[2manyknives]

Can't really comment on the stuff in your link - I don't live in the US and am not familiar with your brands.

If you don't thicken the epoxy you won't build up the bedding between the head and handle. Most of it will leak out, or gather around where you seal it if you tape up the gap etc while it dries. Remember that you are less concerned with adhesion and more concerned with bedding the surfaces together with no gaps.

Broadly speaking there are two main types of thickeners used with expoxy. The first is fairing (sometimes called microballoons) compound which is easy to sand for cosmetic finishes - you don't want that. What I have generically described as 'glue powder 'is used to thicken expoxy liquid up for structural situations. Boat building supplies places usually have it. A local business that builds fibreglass swimming pools sells a good variety of it where I live.

If you can't find glue powder try clean wood sawdust to thicken the stuff up. Don't get it too thick or it will be weaker - it should still flow but only just.

The five minute stuff won't give you much time to work so get organised before you start.

 

[vector001]

i wouldn't put sawdust in epoxy to try and strengthen it.

DISCUSSION:

epoxy and wood don't cooperate very well together anyways - the lower compressive strength of the sawdust is just going to be like a million weaknesses in the epoxy IMHO. milled cotton fibers, called flox in the composites industry, would act similarly. - they are both excellent fillers, but relatively-poor load-bearing compounds.

common grades of marine epoxy usually sit somewhere around 7000 psi compressive strength, which isn't too bad when you consider that the head on a Cold Steel Hawk is going to be taking a lot of the load so the epoxy inside the eye should be "overbuilt" with just plain marine epoxy inside. - that's assuming that the wooden hafts are adequate though.

there are special additives, like fused silicas, milled glass fibers, etc., that can make epoxies even stronger than their base strength factors, including but not limited to the factor of compressive strength. you need to know what you are doing to mix those though (properly, without air bubbles, and then somehow miracle them into every nook and cranny inside the eye, between it and the wooden haft), and it can be an expensive learning curve. the way i do it is a nightmare, but the strength benefits make it worth my while.... it's not cost-effective for folks that just want to do a couple hawks, even if i was going to give away trade secrets.

CONCLUSION;

there are still some good ways to "get her done" with a wood stock handle.

i don't think epoxy-based products have much to do with them.

sorry about that.

YMMV.


i have always loved good wood handles, but they are too rare for me.

i'll stick with my composite Gen 1 Mark V handle until i can afford some good Amazon Lumber Forests.


good luck, brother.

the solution probably lays with the use of linseed oil and the application of heat and cold.

vec

 

[SlackStatic]

"the solution probably lays with the use of linseed oil and the application of heat and cold."

Could you elaborate on this Vec? Without giving any trade secrets away, and getting past the fact you dont like wood, how would you as an average joe attach a hawk to a handle given what you know about epoxies and glues(I know it is vast) Would really appreciate it as I am sure other members would as well.

Not looking for bomb proof, but enough that I dont have to worry about the head coming loose out in the field.

Thanks.

 

[vector001]

"the solution probably lays with the use of linseed oil and the application of heat and cold."

Could you elaborate on this Vec? Without giving any trade secrets away, and getting past the fact you dont like wood, how would you as an average joe attach a hawk to a handle given what you know about epoxies and glues(I know it is vast) Would really appreciate it as I am sure other members would as well.

Not looking for bomb proof, but enough that I dont have to worry about the head coming loose out in the field.

Thanks.

it's a traditional method.

i am not a master of traditional methods, but many here are.

maybe they could lend some advice.


i really don't know how an average joe should do it - there are too many things wrong with that handle to start talking about improvements without completely re-vamping the sytem. which is what i did to mine. - i always stayed away from hawks because of the problems i see everyone having with them - it's a design weakness IMHO. i always loved them, but until i toughened them up (per weight, over wood) for my own use, i didn't have much success with them. i didn't trust them, so they weren't for me. they were like Saturday Night Specials, metaphorically speaking.

i hope that makes the slightest bit of sense - i am bushed from hawking all day - more tomorrow....


composites were my answer to the issues i saw in hawks.

sorry about that.

vec

 

[Calebklyne]

i know from working with hammers everyday at work and trying everything possible keep the from breaking that the less you allow the wood to flex the more likely it is to break, if your head allows for for no movement what so ever then all that force will be transferred to the handle causing it to break sooner

 

[vector001]

i know from working with hammers everyday at work and trying everything possible keep the from breaking that the less you allow the wood to flex the more likely it is to break, if your head allows for for no movement what so ever then all that force will be transferred to the handle causing it to break sooner

i agree, for the most part. fiber-alignement allows you toi get around that, but you lose shock-absorption benefits with a straight-fiber-grained wood handle sometimes.

because of cash-flow, i have to wait to get some composites that will allow me to make odd-shaped handles that are as strong as the Mk Vs. - meanwhile, the Mk V handles are designed on top of the Gen 1 Mk 4 handles, which were more whippy. i like them both, i might have to keep making the Mk 4, but the Mk V i think i s going ot be my staff handle, for sure.

they both flex about the same range, it's just harder to flex the Mk V - so far, with the tremendous forces that go into the handle on huge impacts/chops, they still absorb the shock that the Mk 4's were known for, so one doesn't get the hand shock.

with wood on the other hand, you get a lot more neck stresses than with an endo-/exo-skeletal handle such as ours, where there are two large purpose-built cavities in the handle. - all the finerglass handles out there (that i have seen) are a joke in my opinion, because they just repeat the limitations of wood, without wood's natural fiber alignment, by making the necks solid without a gradual step-down in structure (if the handles are hollow at all).

you get a big stress riser in the junture area of the head/neck when you make a compoiste handle that way. add a bad overstrike or two and you are done.

by taking the foam out of our original handle design, we actually made the same handle stronger, because we removed the fulcrum that breaks the handles' backs.

less really is more.

vec

 

[Smash05]

The key to woods hawk usage in my view (as in you are using it as a chopping or hammering tool) is to carry an extra handle, or be prepared to improvise a haft. I have yet to have a hawk head fly off a handle. However, you might try adding the langets offered by cold steel for their war hammer, to keep the head in place. Understand that this makes the wood more rigid and may cause it to break more quickly. How about doing a tight cord wrap instead.

 

[vector001]

The key to woods hawk usage in my view (as in you are using it as a chopping or hammering tool) is to carry an extra handle, or be prepared to improvise a haft. I have yet to have a hawk head fly off a handle. However, you might try adding the langets offered by cold steel for their war hammer, to keep the head in place. Understand that this makes the wood more rigid and may cause it to break more quickly. How about doing a tight cord wrap instead.

if you are depending on a hawk in the woods, any hawk, you don't need to carry an extra handle, you just need to know the tool's limits.

the stock Cold Steel Hawk handles are fine IMHO. i think the head is much tougher and better than the handles that they come with, and that's why i wanted a composite handle for mine - to just make them better.

that doesn't mean the CS hawks weren't great in the first place, of course.

the wrap we put on the bottom does help a little, but mostly for impact wear purposes from overstrikes, vice head retention.

the challenge with wood, is nothing really sticks to it except other wood products - anything really strong that sticks to it is just going to break away the top layer when it fails, so putties and stuff won't work to retain a wood-hafted head, or they will require such a massive collar of stuff that the hawk's physics will just absolutely suck - you might as well be carrying an axe, because the hawk will be too heavy and imbalanced to do what it does well.

all that said, i had a hawk that lasted me almost thirty years, that i built when i was a kid. it was a river rock hafted on some split dirftwood and wrapped with leather. i broke other rocks with it for years as a rock hammer.

i think that is probably tough enough.

leather is really a great wrap for a haft that breathes like wood does. i urge folks who have not done so to consider experimenting with leather.

now that my brain is starting to work again, a piece of bone in the overstrike area of a slip-handled hawk, all wrapped up in leather and wetted down to tighten it up would be pretty awesome for both head retention and durability. - you would just want to make sure and stay on top of the natural materials, always maintaining them, just like our native ancestors that used such hawks and arrangements..

food for thought, is all i am trying to contribute.

'hope the wheels are spinnin'.

vec

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I have yet to have a hawk head fly off a handle.

Since a hawk's haft is larger above the eye, unlike an axe, if the head flies off, it means the haft just flat broke.

Basically, on a wood haft, you line up the head as well as you can and beat it down, letting friction grasp the haft. On the CS ones, you can also use the set screw in the side, but that kind of sucks. You're adding a point source for stress on the haft. If the head loosens, just pound it back onto the haft, that's part of the beauty of a hawk.

For the wrap, why not use soaked rawhide? Wrap it tight, and the rawhide shrinks and tightens as it dries. dip the entire head in boiled linseed oil and it will swell, adding more pressure between haft and head. Plus it helps preserve the wood, keeping it from getting dry and brittle.

 

[Smash05]

Since a hawk's haft is larger above the eye, unlike an axe, if the head flies off, it means the haft just flat broke.

Basically, on a wood haft, you line up the head as well as you can and beat it down, letting friction grasp the haft. On the CS ones, you can also use the set screw in the side, but that kind of sucks. You're adding a point source for stress on the haft. If the head loosens, just pound it back onto the haft, that's part of the beauty of a hawk.

For the wrap, why not use soaked rawhide? Wrap it tight, and the rawhide shrinks and tightens as it dries. dip the entire head in boiled linseed oil and it will swell, adding more pressure between haft and head. Plus it helps preserve the wood, keeping it from getting dry and brittle.

which is why I am wondering why it is so essential for the OP to secure the head to the haft. That damn set screw caused at least one of my hafts to split, I just tossed the screw after that. Maybe the OP can tell us why, it might help us help him.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Maybe he's not used to hawks?

 

[SlackStatic]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.

For one CPL is dead on I dont have a lot of experience with hawks, and two I am being deployed soon and would want something I dont have to worry about. I REALLY dont like the idea of the head "loosening" with use or anything like that, I also dont want to have to carry an extra handle.

I am looking into some plastics currently. Wish I had Vecs knowledge when it came to this, but you learn by doing so might as well test a few things out.

 

[Smash05]

I might suggest something to you. Call up Dana at Fort Turner Hawks. See if he can put a hawk together for you quickly. Tell him you are about to deploy, see if he can get you one before you ship out. His head to handle fit is excellent. I wouldn't be messing around with something for the first time if it could mean my life.

 

[vector001]

I might suggest something to you. Call up Dana at Fort Turner Hawks. See if he can put a hawk together for you quickly. Tell him you are about to deploy, see if he can get you one before you ship out. His head to handle fit is excellent. I wouldn't be messing around with something for the first time if it could mean my life.

+ 1.

Fort Turner oughtta turn out something good for you at a decent price point.

don't bother fooling around with plastics, delrins., etc. is my unsolicited advice. - if there was something stock that worked, i'd be buying it instead of being forced to build it.

vec