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Attention British members.

Discussion in 'Knife Laws' started by donn, Jun 30, 2018.

  1. donn

    donn Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 14, 2002
    Evening everyone. I'm sorry I only usually frequent the Traditional forum. I was going to post this in the Law Forum but I'm posting this here as I think it's more likely to reach the people it concerns.
    Mods: my apologies if this isn't in the right place; please move if this is inappropriate.

    This is for the British members of Bladeforums.

    Last October the UK government held a public consultation on a proposal to alter the Offensive Weapons legislation for England and Wales. This encompassed Knives and other bladed articles, corrosive substances and certain firearms. I believe one of our members (Chui-888?) highlighted this at the time.
    The consultation ended in December and since then the UK government has been considering it's response in regards to what legislation would be introduced.


    I've been occasionally going back to the UK government website to check. I'm sat here with a beer and was about to go to bed when I thought I'd check again.
    Now unfortunately I've given up watching and reading UK based news media, so this may not be a surprise to some but it was to me. Not only has the UK government responded, but it has actually already passed the legislation and introduced further restrictions.


    The actual legislation.

    Essentially, and of most interest to us is the ban on the delivery of knives (which have been purchased online) to residential addresses. I've only quickly scan read the document but it mentions delivery to 'lockers'. I'm not sure how this will work in practice so I'm going to have to investigate this further. I'm sure one of the major online knife retailers (perhaps Heinnie?) will have details on their website.

    Secondly, the ban on "Zombie knives". Now I'm a traditional user so I'm only vaguely aware of what a zombie knife is. But if you read the legislation the legal definition of a zombie knife is quite vague. In theory it could mean ANY FIXED BLADE KNIFE. I'm not saying that's the case but you will all be aware of how the UK police operate, and how they interpret legislation in regards to offensive weapons.

    Also I'm not sure when this new legislation actually comes into force, but I'm assuming soon if it's not already effective.
    Please pass this on to any British knife owners you know. And my apologies if this has already been raised.

    Frontiersteve and betover like this.
  2. Hickory n steel

    Hickory n steel

    Feb 11, 2016
    This really makes me feel for our UK knife enthusiasts.
    It sickens me how ignorant a government can be and how they're so blind to the fact that their " quick fix " mentality which doesn't actually target the real issue will not solve anything.
    Deinos, donn and betover like this.
  3. betover

    betover Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 1, 2015
    The original law about carrying locking folders came about when some judge decided that a locked blade was the same as a fixed blade and hence, couldn't be carried unless you were in the woods or something. Then when they did write legislation, they included knives with scary names, like Dark Opps or the Zombie slayer or whatever. Apparently there are only a few in Parliament that support knife rights & the culture is so PC (by our standards) that any type of protest is unlikely. Sorry state of affairs.
    Prester John and donn like this.
  4. Wowbagger


    Sep 20, 2015
    It would be hard for me to take seriously any legislation with the term "zombie knife" in it.
    They need to get specific or "go home".
    Prester John, Gvard and donn like this.
  5. unwisefool

    unwisefool Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 22, 2007
    Unfortunately they take it very seriously and they leave it vague on purpose.
  6. Mecha

    Mecha Madscienceforge.com Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 27, 2013
    Any Brits want to purchase an agricultural hedge trimmer?

  7. jbmonkey

    jbmonkey Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Jun 9, 2011
    wonder if zombie knife covers a normal machete used on property as a tool much like a shovel or wheelbarrow would be.

    this legislation sure seems as knee jerk as many of our own laws passed that do little to address the issues but fulfill those who love knee jerking.
    donn likes this.
  8. b00n

    b00n Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 15, 2016
    Laws seem to be more about band aids and popular public perception and not solution finding. Same here in Germany. "Oh no somebody stabbed somebody with a kitchen knife." "POLITICIANS! DO SOMETHING OUR CHILDREN ARE DYING!" "Sure thing, we'll ban black knives that have names like Military Spec Ops Raider! So nobody will be stabbed by tactical knives with black coating anymore!" "REALLY?" "Yes...probably...maybe...hey...we're trying over here...sort of...it's not big on the agenda but we felt compelled to do something without really putting in a lot of effort...you know?"
    donn likes this.
  9. bonzodog

    bonzodog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 3, 2011
    There is a petition being signed to halt this nonsense,don’t know if it will do any good ,but it’s worth a try.There are a great many people working hard behind the scenes on our behalf.
    jbmonkey and donn like this.
  10. donn

    donn Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 14, 2002
    Actually 'ignorant' is something their not. They know precisely what their doing. You can read the first link which describes the responses from the public detailing their concerns. About the harm to businesses, about criminalizing the law-abiding. About how current legislation is already adequate.

    This was my response.

    "There are still small volume cutlery manufacturers (mainly in Sheffield) that have come to rely on internet sales to support their business. A ban on internet sales could adversely effect their business and lead to job losses and the loss of another traditional industry.

    Knives are not the only age restricted product available to purchase on the internet for delivery to domestic addresses. Alcohol, tobacco products, age restricted media and gambling products are just some of the other products available to purchase online. If the Government believes that age verification protocols used for the purchase of all age restricted products, as listed by Trading Standards, are adequate, then surely those protocols remain adequate for online knife sales to domestic addresses.

    I DO NOT agree in the proposal to ban the online sale of knives to domestic addresses, but the Government could implement to two measures to further ensure the legal and safe purchase of knives online:

    1. The minimum age required to possess a credit card in the UK is 18. Prohibit the use of Paypal, and stipulate that all online knife sales have to be made using a credit card.
    2. The minimum age that you can be entered onto the Electoral Register in England and Wales is 18. Stipulate that vendors must use the Electoral Register to verify age and address of the customer.
      If a customer has not entered their details on to the Electoral Register then they would be unable to purchase knives online".

    Do you think my reasoning logical, measured and proportionate? Most of the responses received were apparently similar to mine. The government actually acknowledged the reasons against introducing this legislation as legitimate and valid concerns. Over 10,000 people responded, the majority all expressing those valid and legitimate concerns.
    So what did the government do? Completely ignore them. :rolleyes:
    There are reasons for this. To detail them would probably mean a trip to the political forum though.
    As to protesting this, or having these news laws repealed, there isn't a chance of that happening.

    Possibly. If I'm reading the definition of a "Zombie knife" correctly it is an implement with
    "a sharp blade".
    "a serrated blade".

    That could refer to any bladed article. Again, it has been deliberately left vague to deliberately catch out as many manufacturers, retailers and owners as possible.

    jbmonkey likes this.
  11. Etna


    Jun 17, 2015
    Not British, and have not read through the legislation, but my two cents anyway:

    Regarding the delivery to lockers; I would think that it means any knife bought online (either locally or overseas) will be impounded, for the lack of a better word, in a police lockup. After that, a notice will be sent to the buyer notifying him or her to bring the required ID and purchase order to claim ownership of the knife. That is the only sane implementation I can think of; surely they can't expect commercial entities to store knives for people who aren't their customers.

    More importantly, is there anything in the legislation which seeks to ban existing knives such as folders, flippers, AOs and locking folders? I am already aware of the 'no locking folder with blade length greater than three inches' carry ban, but possession and ownership is not affected, no?

    Edit: I take that back, AOs are banned. The definition for a flick knife has been amended to include
    any knife which has a blade which opens automatically—
    from the closed position to the fully opened position, or
    from a partially opened position to the fully opened position, by manual pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the knife, and which is sometimes known as a
    “flick knife” or “flick gun”;
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  12. dirc


    Jan 31, 2018
    so... let me get this straight?

    The British have effectively banned Anglo-Saxons from owning a knife? Did you know that the name/label Saxon is from Seax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax
    That is a pretty messed up state of affairs.
    philbro and Prester John like this.
  13. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    There's a reason why we fought a couple wars to get our freedom. Sorry Brits, if I were you I'd move.
  14. Etna


    Jun 17, 2015
    Move? To where? The US?

    I'm sorry for being blunt here, but news aggregators like Google and Yahoo are reporting instances of open hostility by Americans to foreigners like Asians (especially the Chinese), Middle Easterners and South Americans on a near daily basis ever since Trump won the presidential elections.

    I suppose the British and Europeans are still welcome in the US though.
  15. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    Move to somewhere free. That is what we did.

    Don't apologize for saying ignorant things. I've not seen whatever it is you think you are talking about. I live in an area where half the kids at my daughter's school are non-white. It has been that why for a long time. Many families moving in an out of the area. Several non English speaking. Even Asian people if you can believe it. Not once has race ever been an issue. And guess what? I can carry a gun and just about any knife I want, legally.

    So yes, I would recommend moving to a free country.

    In the least, this thread should probably be in knife laws. At worst, the political arena. That is the topic area where these things inevitably devolve.
  16. AJR576

    AJR576 Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 15, 2014
    At the risk of crossing over into politics, our freedom (and the Constitution) is under attack by many elected politicians here in the US.

    If you think that these ridiculous laws aren't already taking root here, then you're wrong.

    Take a look at what's happening in many US cities/states with regards to restrictive knife laws, "gun control", etc.

    These politicians know that banning objects has no effect on criminals/preventing violent crimes...they simply use horrific acts to advance their agenda.

    By the time these laws are in place, it's very difficult to do anything about them...you need to go upstream and stop politicians that favor restricting the rights of law abiding citizens versus punishing criminals/those that will break the law regardless.

    If people don't understand what they're voting for, then they'll ultimately get what thet deserve.
  17. AJR576

    AJR576 Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 15, 2014
    I'll just add that if you're relying on Google and Yahoo to serve up unbiased "news" / reports, then it's not surprising that you now have that opinion.
    jux t, Rykjeklut and Prester John like this.
  18. jc57

    jc57 Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 28, 2012
    Perhaps this will be a boon to local merchants, especially for kitchen knives. If I were a brick-and-mortar knife store, I would LOVE it if all of a sudden, Amazon could not sell and ship knives to my area. Because of the higher overhead for physical stores, that would increase prices to the consumer, but that would just be a return to a more normal pricing model.
    Mecha and Prester John like this.
  19. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    Thankfully, we have a thing called states rights. One can choose to live in a state that has rights that match the way you want to live. The gun and knife laws aren't changing in my state anytime soon, for better or worse.

    Way too much political talk. I'm done in this thread.
    Airborne 1 likes this.
  20. Etna


    Jun 17, 2015
    If you were a brick-and-motar store I'll make sure you have to work to earn the right for the higher prices you are charging my wallet.

    My practice is to browse the store and ask if they are open to bringing in additional knives that they do not stock. If they say yes, I'll tell them the models I want, and then ask them to give me an appropriate quote with the appropriate markup.

    If I'm agreeable with the markup for their services, the deal gets closed. Otherwise, you can be certain I will find ways to work around that import ban.
  21. Prester John

    Prester John Gold Member Basic Member Gold Member

    May 20, 2018
    That is an understatement. Scary times.

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