Ax with a shallow pointed bit?

I understand that the general shape is similar. What I’m curious about is the functionality of the point at the apex of the belly. I think the point is fairly unique.
 
If you pay attention to the video you'll see that the belly's apex is not being used actively in striking the targets, and Chris even mentions that he's landing his blows with the straight part of the edge, not the angular transition. What's causing the chopping ability is not the polygonal form of the blade, but rather the mass distribution of the tool and spatial placement of the edge relative to the axle (the axis around which the tool naturally rotates given a particular grip point.) In terms of the linear edges and angular junction, it's more of a visual distinction than a functional one. A convexly-curved cutting line provides a very similar effect to a linear one when it comes to penetration. Direct penetration matters mostly for one-hit cuts, which are difficult to land such an apex on, while targets requiring multiple blows necessitate the cuts connecting across the face of the target. Straighter edges are easier to connect multiple blows with, while more arched cutting lines will bite deeper in terms of maximum depth of cut, but at the expense of making connecting blows across a target face more difficult. Straight edges and sharp angles can be used to produce certain functional effects, but what you're noting it more of a result of other factors.
 
Square_peg said:
I've seen those and I can't conceive of any use for them.

Well, they could be used to extract money from suckers.........

The upper one has had the toe ground off like a totally worn out - send to China for recycling - axe.

The lower one........no. Just no.

Goofy things to help teenage boys fantasize that they are badass.
Click to expand...

Ah, that point has one use. Piercing, even bullet proof vests.


There is a member here, who often posts pics of his winkler axe with that point.




He has had occasion to not only use it, but actually had to use it on a mexican drug cartel member who was wearing a bullet proof vest, and wrestling with another member of his team with a shotgun.


The point pierced the bullet proof vest and he gave up instantly.

The member posted photos of the pierced vest, all bloody, the axe after the action.


He would frequently post video's testing knives, and axes, etc against ballistic vests.

He would also post photo's of sweet seized weapons, etc.



Here is a link where to one of the firefight videos.




http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/889870-Sayoc-Winkler-hawk-vs-IIIA-kevlar-vest (this one has a picture of him with a few other mexican anti drug officers training, he is the one with his face unblurred and the Winkler fixed blade on the vest.


This member has posted videos of firefights he is involved in.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/876665-Just-another-day-in-Mexico

His hawk mounted on the vest (MP5 included)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/833442-Axe-or-hawk-carry-methods/page2



http://www.teotwawki-blog.com/2013/03/interview-with-edwood-tactical-tomahawks.html#more








I'm having trouble finding that thread right now. I'll have to come back when I do.
 
I heard Chris say that too. However, between 9:35 and 9:54 minutes he is using the hell out of the tip of the belly and getting great chopping action. I have no doubt that you know more about this than I do. On the other hand, I was very influenced by the chopping action of the pointed heel of the wsk. I'm going to do a little chopping comparison this weekend.
 
If you were to take two of that "Hawkchete" and you ground a curve on one of them that fit inside the polygonal shape you'd find the change in cutting performance to be minimal. Note that I'm not saying that there wouldn't be any change, but that what change there was would have very little practical effect on performance.
 
Here's a digital example of what I mean. This is entirely done within the boundaries of the "Hawkchete"'s blade and so could be made from a stock example.

13235327_10209404519178372_919741528357597963_o.jpg


Note for posterity: the image is hosted only temporarily so if you don't see a picture in this post in the future, that's why.
 
vcbvcbvcb said:
I don't know what's up with the "Bladeforums" email notification system. I've only gotten two notifications that replies had been posted to this thread, Half ax in the beginning and Square_Peg today. I had no idea people were replying.

Wildernessknife made the observation that axes are supposed to "pop chips". It was interesting, my WSK didn't, it sliced wood as I came down on one side and then popped the chip out as I came down and sliced the the other side. It never popped a chip with one blow. It worked best with high repetition and low force.

The whole thing has me interested enough that I might test the idea by filing down the heel and toe on a $12 HF hatchet. It's a good candidate because it has a thick convex edge. A hatchet seems like a better choice than an ax due to the short handle producing less leverage, less force and less stress on the point.

I missed a swing once bypassing the wood and lightly glanced off concrete. The hatchet chipped the concrete and the edge didn't chip or roll. It's one of the few good HF hatchets. I kind of hate to file it into oblivion and then find out that it was a totally useless experiment. It seems like alternating blows between a point and an edge might have some merit. Then again, it's the nicest piece of Chinese junk I have, decisions decisions...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you think I was implying that any axe would be able to pop a chip "with one blow," I don't even understand how that makes sense. What I was referring to is a quality of the cutting geometry, of which there are a myriad of factors that would take a very long time to get into but have been pretty well argued and debated on this very forum. Different axes are made for different purposes and for cutting different types of wood for a reason. An angled edge will not pop the chips while bucking a piece of wood as well as curved or (depending on wood and other qualities of the blade) even flat blade. Even if it could, the chopping technique would rely on absolutely perfect symmetrical placement of blows so that the fibers cut from corresponding blows would line up, of course that would only work on perfectly straight-grained wood, so it's even more ridiculous.

It's easier for you to just research some more about cutting geometry and how chopping wood actually happens than it is to break down all of the reasons that the tracker is a silly design, though not silly enough to be intended for chopping with the pointed section.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Here's a digital example of what I mean. This is entirely done within the boundaries of the "Hawkchete"'s blade and so could be made from a stock example.

13235327_10209404519178372_919741528357597963_o.jpg


Note for posterity: the image is hosted only temporarily so if you don't see a picture in this post in the future, that's why.
Click to expand...

chopping power +2, tactical zombie slaying ninja power -10
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I disagree with the notion that it chops better than an average machete, at least if compared to similarly proportioned designs. The "Hawkchete", as it were, is a long-ish kukri machete with a low polygon count. :D It's really no different than any other forward-swept, point-weighted design.
Click to expand...

42, that was a good diagram demo, thanks. Now I get that the Hawkchete is almost identical to any other forward-swept, point-weighted design. I'll even give you 95% similar. I don't want to go around in circles, but it's the 5% difference at the point of the belly that interests me. I don't care about the "zombie apocalypse" appearance, in fact to me it's a negative. If I bought one, I'd grind the spine-edge flat and round the forward tip a little. However, I'm not primarily interested in buying a machete. I was looking at the Hawkchete's broad point at the belly as an example of how I might re-grind the edge on my cheap HF hatchet. I want to see how a pointed edge (however incredibly shallow) chops in comparison to a rounded edge. Everybody is probably correct and it won't chop any better, maybe worse than current designs. But hey, it's a $12 hatchet. I mean something like this:

 
WKT your right, popping a chip with one blow was a silly statement. However, using the point of the heel on the wsk to chop wood, especially hardwood, works pretty well. It would be dumb if I meant just the point alone, but that's not what I mean. The point starts the penetration and helps the next inch or so of the blade to slice in easier. I'll try to get a video done to show what I'm talking about. I'm also not talking about chopping down a tree with a wsk. I talking about chopping limb size wood and making kindling.
 
vcbvcbvcb said:
...I mean something like this:

Click to expand...

I think that the "point" could be weaker (and perhaps deform more easily) because it wouldn't be as well-supported upon impact (similar to how Square_peg has suggested that the heel and toe of an axe should be thicker than the rest of the bit). Having a thicker point (to compensate for this) would of course have less penetration as a trade-off. Determining the overall effect probably needs some experimentation (instead of pure theory), so please let us know your results.

My guess is that with heavy use, the point will eventually deform and get rounded with repairs and sharpening (otherwise, a lot more metal will need to be removed to maintain a point with straight sides).
 
I think,

1) it won't connect the cut as 42 already said, and
2) it will wear down very quickly as Steve said.

But please let us know how it performs.
 
Damn, now I have to do it! I believe all 3 of you. I chose this hatchet because it was cheap, it has the thickest bit of all my hatchets, and the steel is good for a HF tool. I'm going to choose a long enough piece of wood that I can chop in one place with the edge as is and another spot after modification. I'll count the number of chops to go through the wood per edge. I might video it. The only thing in question will be my sharpening skills and getting both edges equally sharp.
I've also noticed in comparison tests that guys frequently "prove" their point by hitting harder with the blade they want to win. I'll try not to do that.
 
Look what I found at H&B Forge. Granted, it's point is much more extreme then I had in mind. This is the caption on their site:

"Crain Hawk, Named after the man who designed it and asked us to build it, this axe is designed to be used as a tool for wood cutting and stacking."

The blade is 3 inches long across the upper edge and 2.75 inches long across the lower edge.
DETAILS: The length of the blade is about 6.25 inches. It uses our standard 19 inch handle. The weight of the head is about 1.0 lbs. The overall weight with the handle is about 1.5 lbs.

 
vcbvcbvcb said:
Look what I found at H&B Forge. Granted, it's point is much more extreme then I had in mind. This is the caption on their site:

"Crain Hawk, Named after the man who designed it and asked us to build it, this axe is designed to be used as a tool for wood cutting and stacking."


Click to expand...

Barnum & Bailey would have had a descriptor for someone that buys of one of these as a wood processing tool. But, I can see the thing being OK for sizing ice blocks.
 
Yeah--I really fail to see how that tool is in any way optimized for those tasks. :confused:
 
I too am a little perplexed, then again I haven't used it. The one thing I can say is that it's a 1 lb. head so it's intended for pretty small work. I'm not sure how the upper edge would be used.
 
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