Axe maul handles

[cityofthesouth]

Please be specific, what exactly are you referring to that I said?

thanks,

Bob

The OP's end grain picture clearly illustrates that the break is perpendicular to the grain - that is, across. So, I think the question is, can run-out happen both with and against the grain? Because interestingly, I believe that is what your image from the previous page illustrates with the pink line. This handle was flat sawn - as we typically think it should have been.

 

[Old Axeman]

You can have run out no matter what the grain orientation if the helve is from sawn hickory. As said by many here, riven and air dried is best. As said by me many times, a straight handle is a better bet than a curved handle. Yes, also, too many growth rings to the inch.

 

[cityofthesouth]

Sure, we all get it - run-out is most typically the result of sawing, and not intrinsic to grain orientation. Shiny.

On the first page Bob linked to an article. In that article the author is taking a piece of quarter sawn pine and splitting it AGAINST THE GRAIN - this is to say he lays his froe 90 degrees to the growth rings - and when it splits at an angle he describes this as run-out. Precisely as the pink line in Bob's image indicates. HOWEVER, it's backwards to what we commonly refer to as run-out and backwards to 300's infamous heavy run-out handle picture that we all know and love. If this is a real issue, then every curved handle on the planet with "correct" grain orientation would break exactly like this handle did. And since we can't visually see this perpendicular "grain", it's pure luck then that half our straight handles don't break like this one.

The point? Is there grain run-out in both "planes", so to speak? Obviously wood will split against the grain (one reason we avoid metal wedges used against the grain) but this handle didn't just split against the grain, it appears to have broken across the grain. Yes, at a very acute angle, but across none the less.

If yes, it's pure luck that we don't break more handles OR...

If no, then this handle did NOT break due to run-out and in fact it appears to be correctly FLAT sawn lumber, with little significant run-out which should have made a perfectly good handle but didn't. Which leads me to believe, as others have pointed out, the issue is with the wood, processes involved in drying it, and the tight grain or some combination thereof, or something else entirely.

My issue is, I get what the author of the article is saying. We have all split wood, and taken what appears to be a straight piece of wood, attempted to split it against the end grain, only to find that it splits at an angle rather than straight. Is this a second "form" of run-out?

 

[Beachlogger]

Maybe log taper played a role in this,

 

[SC T100]

There does appear to be a line of dark wood, as though a fungus was in the wood.

 

[quinton]

Maybe log taper played a role in this,

Very possible with a sawn blank.

 

[tylermack]

Look at that cheap rubish wood plus it is only a boys axe



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[FortyTwoBlades]

If memory serves correctly that's the result of a fungal attack and can't be easily identified when the wood is being cut. But it makes itself very apparent when used! The break always looks like an Aero Bar.

 

[quinton]

If memory serves correctly that's the result of a fungal attack and can't be easily identified when the wood is being cut. But it makes itself very apparent when used! The break always looks like an Aero Bar.

Exactly! Hickory is one of our strongest woods, but quickest to decay. Care has to be taken in seasoning, especially when a tree is cut in warmer weather.

 

[garry3]

Look at that cheap rubish wood plus it is only a boys axe



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Dead standing or diseased trees are rarely good wood. The exception would be fire killed were the tree was healthy, but you have to get to the white wood species pretty quick because they are not rot resistant.
This example was exacerbated, by sharp shoulders and even notched for the head. Not that it would not have broken anyway. But it illustrates how not to hang an axe quite well.

It is interesting that we can quote growth rings per inch as an indication of how strong a wood is and it is only a generalization on ring porous wood. A much better eye test is to just look at the early to late wood ratio.

 

[rjdankert]

The OP's end grain picture clearly illustrates that the break is perpendicular to the grain - that is, across. So, I think the question is, can run-out happen both with and against the grain? Because interestingly, I believe that is what your image from the previous page illustrates with the pink line. This handle was flat sawn - as we typically think it should have been.

The only thing that I can think of is that you are describing "perpendicular to the grain - that is, across" as represented by the vertical line as shown in this picture:

The dark lines shown on the end grain above are from latewood:

http://www.copperman.co.uk/didgeridoo/how_to_make_a_wooden_didgeridoo/what_is_wood.php

I think of the old analogy of a log being like a bundle of straws with he grain direction running parallel to the "straws". If I split a log it will separate between the "straws" or along the grain. On the other hand, if I buck a log I will sever the "straws" or cut across the grain.

http://www.the-warren.org/KS3revision/bobs book/y7alongthegrain.htm



Straight grain (fig 1) vs runout (figs 2 & 3):

http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/build_7.htm

Bob

 

[serotina]

Sure, we all get it - run-out is most typically the result of sawing, and not intrinsic to grain orientation. Shiny.

Actually, run out is only the result of sawing or more specifically cutting at an angle to the wood fiber direction. I've rarely seen wood split at an angle to the grain, and only seen it in relatively weak woods that would not be used as tool handles.

That this break happened so quickly leads me to agree that the handle had other problems - some of the possibilities have been mentioned already - but it broke in exactly the way a run out handle breaks. Usually it just takes a lot longer. The vast majority of the machine made handles I've seen do this, because they all have run out to some degree or another. The industry and customers have no interest in paying $50 per handle - which is what I would guess (completely made up guess ) they would cost if started with riven billets.

 

[garry3]

The only thing that I can think of is that you are describing "perpendicular to the grain - that is, across" as represented by the vertical line as shown in this picture:

The dark lines shown on the end grain above are from latewood:

http://www.copperman.co.uk/didgeridoo/how_to_make_a_wooden_didgeridoo/what_is_wood.php

I think of the old analogy of a log being like a bundle of straws with he grain direction running parallel to the "straws". If I split a log it will separate between the "straws" or along the grain. On the other hand, if I buck a log I will sever the "straws" or cut across the grain.

http://www.the-warren.org/KS3revision/bobs book/y7alongthegrain.htm



Straight grain (fig 1) vs runout (figs 2 & 3):

http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/build_7.htm

Bob

Not sure what species of wood that is demonstrating the early to late wood, but the early wood is obviously darker and that is completely backwards.

 

[halfaxe]

Not sure what species of wood that is demonstrating the early to late wood, but the early wood is obviously darker and that is completely backwards.

If you are talking about the picture, no it is correct. Trees grow rapidly in the spring and slow in the summer in temperate forests. The wide light color was put on in the spring and the narrow dark rings were grown in the summer.

 

[garry3]

If you are talking about the picture, no it is correct. Trees grow rapidly in the spring and slow in the summer in temperate forests. The wide light color was put on in the spring and the narrow dark rings were grown in the summer.

What ever it is a picture of I am pretty sure it is not a ring porous hard wood, conifer maybe?

 

[rjdankert]

Not sure what species of wood that is demonstrating. . .

I did not state nor intend that any of the pictures was to "demonstrate" a particular species of wood. My post was about "across the grain" in wood.

Bob

 

[Square_peg]

One problem with that handle is it came from slow growing wood. The growth rings are very close together which means there is more summer growth which contains the weaker open porous wood. Ideally there should be about 8 growth rings per inch.

The Forest Service research showed 5-20 growth rings per inch was optimal in hickory. There was slightly greater flexibility around 12-15 growth rings per inch. Good hickory can be found with up to 40 growth rings per inch.

Rjdankert's post showed how runout can occur in wood that shows ideal grain alignment.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1395612-Axe-maul-handles?p=16086576#post16086576

What this whole thread demonstrates is what Quinton has been preaching about hand-riven staves. It's virtually impossible to get runout with a hand-riven stave.

Vertical grain alignment is still your best indicator for store bought hafts, especially if you're buying a curved haft.

 

[Square_peg]

Exactly! Hickory is one of our strongest woods, but quickest to decay. Care has to be taken in seasoning, especially when a tree is cut in warmer weather.

Here's another reason to consider black locust for your axe handle. Yes, it isn't as strong, tough or flexible as hickory. But it's very good and much much more rot resistant than almost any wood.

 

[cityofthesouth]

Actually, run out is only the result of sawing or more specifically cutting at an angle to the wood fiber direction. I've rarely seen wood split at an angle to the grain, and only seen it in relatively weak woods that would not be used as tool handles.

That this break happened so quickly leads me to agree that the handle had other problems - some of the possibilities have been mentioned already - but it broke in exactly the way a run out handle breaks. Usually it just takes a lot longer. The vast majority of the machine made handles I've seen do this, because they all have run out to some degree or another. The industry and customers have no interest in paying $50 per handle - which is what I would guess (completely made up guess ) they would cost if started with riven billets.

You guys have to be kidding me and I'm just not in on the joke. Yes, wood sawn at an angle, how specific do we need to get? EVERYONE GETS IT! Half of your words are exactly the same words I used. Can we get past the semantics at some point?

This handle did not break "exactly the way a run out handle breaks". The break LOOKS the same (because it is a long straight break) but is exactly the opposite orientation to the grain that it should have broken IF it did in fact break due to runout.

Bob, your new picture perfectly illustrates runout so I'm going to use it to demonstrate.

grain_runout2 by city_ofthe_south, on Flickr

The red line illustrates how the OP's handle broke and the board in the picture also perfectly illustrates the OP's handle grain orientation. Bob, my point is this with "across"; just because it is not 90 degrees perpendicular does that make it no longer "across"? I am using the term across because while it is not 90 degrees perpendicular (it's far more acute or obtuse I guess, depending on how you look at it), it is not WITH or ALONG the grain. How?

The blue line indicates how a handle WOULD have broken if it had broken due to runout. That lower picture "figure 3" perfectly illustrates ACTUAL runout and you will note that the break is what? Yes that's right, exactly the opposite.

Now, please take a look at your own pictures. This one indicates runout exactly as we all understand it. You will note that it is completely contradictory to your image from page one and everything that guy says in the link. How is it contradictory? Because the picture from page one illustrates quarter sawn lumber with a pink line running at an angle on the face of the grain. This handle, and the image above all illustrate flat sawn wood and unless I am still missing out on the joke, runout breaks occur WITH the grain. However, that guy is specifically talking about what is exactly illustrated with the pink line in the picture from page one. And he is consistent is calling that runout. He even demonstrates it.

 

[cityofthesouth]

Server problems are killing me over here. I will attempt to complete my other post later. Point I wanted to add is, and I was trying to say it in my earlier posts, this new image illustrates two kinds of runout. Fig 1 has none. Fig 2 has what they are calling sloping grain on the face, and fig 3 has both. The guy in your link is talking about the figure 2 type of runout. My point earlier was, this type of runout would happen on curved handles no matter what, and because it is difficult to see, it would also seem to happen frequently on straight handles as well. We typically attempt to avoid the kind I am trying to illustrate with the blue line. Ultimately the point is, the "on the face" type of runout can't be terribly important because if it were, we'd break a lot more handles.