Axe steel choices, why are most low carbon?

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Sid Post

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I get most axes are in the RC 55~57 range and lower carbon to deal with impact stress.

The C70 German axes I have used seem a bit soft to be honest. Perhaps this is because of the types of trees they cut down? Perhaps American hardwood is harder or they hit fewer knots or have ground impacts with rocks?

Council Tool 'cheap' axes haven't impressed me much but, they do make a better grade I have little experience with. The FOREST SERVICE SPEC REISSUE Boyes axe made with 1084 seems to get a lot of praise so, I'm wondering about the steel it has versus the Boyes profile.

Are steels like 5160, 01, and similar really too hard to make a good axe? Who makes an affordable axe or hatchet with a 14" to 19" haft that is 1# to 2.5# in head weight in the $50 to $150 range for normal camp and household chores?

TIA,
Sid
 
Hickory n steel said:
" Low carbon " what gave you that idea ?
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1095 vs. 1084 vs. C70 vs. ...

In relative terms, 1095 and 1084 have more carbon than a lot of other steels. Other alloying ingredients can increase hardness, shock resistance, and wear resistance, though most axes seem to be made from simple carbon steels so, carbon content matters a lot.
 
As noted in my original post "lower" carbon meaning relative to "high carbon", with C70 and 1084 being typically considered "medium" carbon.
 
Namely simple carbon steels are fully capable of giving excellent performance in the relevant range required of the tool. For the forces involved and the work being done, it's not of tremendous advantage to use anything "better" because the performance gains are in areas outside the scope of the tool's best use to begin with.
 
Well, I like the shape of the German axes I have. What I don't so much like is the soft 'edge' that dulls so quickly.

I realize there is a trade-off for impact stress on the edge but, I would really like an edge that lasts longer.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Namely simple carbon steels are fully capable of giving excellent performance in the relevant range required of the tool. For the forces involved and the work being done, it's not of tremendous advantage to use anything "better" because the performance gains are in areas outside the scope of the tool's best use to begin with.
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A 'better' steel would be welcome and should not cost enough more to be an issue assuming we are talking about common steels used in sawmill blades and similar tools.

Impact stress and shocks are a factor to be dealt with but, W1, L6, O1, 5160, and similar steels are not that expensive or exotic. Something like 1095 is likely too brittle but, the C70 axes I have seem soft. Is this due to a heat treat that favors shock resistance over better edge retention?

I'm not looking for 3V or S7 or anything exotic like that but, simple carbon steels can be made to perform really well. Where do I look to find a real working axe in a traditional German pattern that is hard and long-lasting? Sub-$100 simple carbon axes from the common makers may be good for a homeowner that uses their axe very little but, I really need something that will hold its edge and cut well as I cut stuff in difficult locations for longer periods.
 
Sid Post said:
A 'better' steel would be welcome and should not cost enough more to be an issue assuming we are talking about common steels used in sawmill blades and similar tools.

Impact stress and shocks are a factor to be dealt with but, W1, L6, O1, 5160, and similar steels are not that expensive or exotic. Something like 1095 is likely too brittle but, the C70 axes I have seem soft. Is this due to a heat treat that favors shock resistance over better edge retention?

I'm not looking for 3V or S7 or anything exotic like that but, simple carbon steels can be made to perform really well. Where do I look to find a real working axe in a traditional German pattern that is hard and long-lasting? Sub-$100 simple carbon axes from the common makers may be good for a homeowner that uses their axe very little but, I really need something that will hold its edge and cut well as I cut stuff in difficult locations for longer periods.
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The steel in the axes you're dissatisfied with is capable of being brought to quite high hardness. The steel Gransfors uses in their notoriously hard axes is equivalent to 1055. 1055 is capable of achieving 60-64 RC at full quench. In general, many common hardware store axes are between 45-55 RC with those at the bottom end of that range being the buttery-soft ones that are much maligned. The main reason for this is to make them more prone to dinging rather than chipping when used by the lowest common denominator of users and make re-sharpening quick and easy because axes wielded by the vast majority of users eat a lot of dirt.

In short, your complaint is chiefly with the heat treatment, not the steel.
 
The low 50's or high 40's RC just isn't great and that's where we are with most modern axes. I know C-45 is popular with some European makers and it's not bad if heat treated to the mid 50's. In my limited experience with them they are not that hard and are softer than they once were. YMMV

If you like a little harder steel and shop for used, vintage, choose an axe that shows minor chipping to the edge vs one that has dents.
 
For good hard steel I can at least personally attest to the hardness of Rinaldi axes, which are 58 RC, and I specified for my Forte design for WOOX to be hardened to 57 RC. Obviously, we know well that the Gransfors axes are run pretty hard, too. I've been trying to convince Council to harden their Velvicut models harder so the 5160's potential isn't being squandered but no luck so far.
 
The axe I'm referring to is an Ochsenkopf, not some dime-store import at the local hardware store from China.

How do we heat treat it or a Velvicut to take advantage of the steel?

I get the soft heat treat for random weekend warriors so they get a ding instead of a chip however, Oschenkopf is a professional axe, isn't it? As such, shouldn't it be fully hard? In my case, I'll take the chip as user error if I hit a steel T-post or rock and won't claim a manufacturing defect or some other nonsense.
 
Ochsenkopf used to be famous for their axes being hard and thin enough that they would ring when cutting and were nicknamed "singing axes". Looking currently, however, I cannot find any trustworthy mention of their hardness. Ochsenkopf did formerly used to be a more premium axe but have seemingly dropped in quality in recent years from what I can tell at a distance.
 
Any reputable maker of cutting tools is going to use steels appropriate for the tools primary task.
So now its down to 3 areas.
1. Heat treat. Was tool properly quenched . We can assume so because of quality control
2. Tempering, Most shoot for a average user friendly combination of edge retention and sharpening ease. Thats probably less than 60 Rc.
3. Proper edge geometry for intended use. Thats users determined
As for carbon content. GENERALLY anything higher than. 60 is consider high carbon. Carbon tool steel is .80 with a high manganese content.
Bottom line. Not knowing your intended use you might have to send it out to be professionally heated to your specs
 
The eye of an axe can't be terribly hard or it will split on impact or even during hanging - I've done it. The bit can be harder up to a point. It's an impact tool and has to balance toughness with edge holding ability. It has to be sharpenable with simple tools as one might have on the farm or at a logging camp.

Since at least the 1700s it's been common to see axe bodies made of softer material with high carbon bits forge weled and later electro-welded to those softer axe bodies.

Some makers even used very high carbon 'razor steel', which back then usually meany at least 100 points of carbon but could range up to 120 or even 140 points of carbon (i.e. - 1.4% carbon). Hurds advertised their 'Razor Axe' as having the finest steel available for an axe bit. Sear Roebuck's Fulton brand also marketed an 'Razor Axe' with a very high carbon steel. I imagine these must have been well tempered back to avoid cracking and chipping but would have retained excellent abrasion resistance.
 
I normally use a small, Japanese hatchet to make coarse kindling out of clear-grained firewood rounds -- mostly Doug fir and maple. I do this inside my cabin in front of my stove.

But lately, I've been using a CobbleBlade Beastly Forest Axe, which is more like a cleaver with a heavy stock -- .28 inches -- of CPM M4 steel. The idea is to gain better control while splitting wood inside my cabin by using the weight of the short cleaver vs the speed of the long hatchet head to split wood.

The M4 is heat treated to 63 Rc. I've had no chipping or edge wear at all.

This is the axe from CobbleBlade's website.
1645899387480.png
 
Forged, medium carbon steels are very tough and shock resistant. They are also affordable and easy to machine, keeping the price low for the average person. As for keeping the RC lower as in Council Tool's axes, I guess that's a design philosophy they came up with eons ago. Axes that are used in really cold weather can get brittle and chip out, so getting the RC in that sweet spot that holds an edge yet doesn't break or chip under stress is an art. I do believe the great axe makers of the past perfected that sweet spot with their heat treatment, similar to how Buck Knives perfected their heat treatment of 420HC in today's times. Council Tool may have never quite perfected that and stays just a little on the soft side for that reason.

Getting back to the original question, axes are never going to use "Supersteel" because frankly, most supersteels suck for toughness, or, if they are tough like 3V, would make an axe far too expensive for an average person, or would be ridiculously hard to sharpen out in the field. Medium carbon forged steel just works, is easy to sharpen, and keeps an axe affordable.

The reality is that if you use an axe often, it is inevitable that you will hit tiny rocks inside of a partially rotted tree, hit an extra hard frozen knot, or an old nail from 50 years ago that the tree concealed as it grew. This will damage nearly any axe blade so you want an axe that is affordable and easy to repair with a file when that happens.

Cheers
 
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Twindog said:
I normally use a small, Japanese hatchet to make coarse kindling out of clear-grained firewood rounds -- mostly Doug fir and maple. I do this inside my cabin in front of my stove.

But lately, I've been using a CobbleBlade Beastly Forest Axe, which is more like a cleaver with a heavy stock -- .28 inches -- of CPM M4 steel. The idea is to gain better control while splitting wood inside my cabin by using the weight of the short cleaver vs the speed of the long hatchet head to split wood.

The M4 is heat treated to 63 Rc. I've had no chipping or edge wear at all.

This is the axe from CobbleBlade's website.
View attachment 1752675
Click to expand...


Wow, that is some really beautiful craftmanship and I am glad it works for you. To be fair, most people, unless they were well off, would never take a $500 custom piece like this and start wacking on firewood everyday despite the fact that it is built for hard use. And sadly, I saw that Cobbleblade is a Ukraine knifemaker, so it's very likely that his knifemaking operation will be disrupted or shut down completely, so your blade may become very rare soon. But I will say that I am very impressed with that blade. Cheers, CW
 
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