Axe Vs. Knife

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6" live OAK branch.
Knife vs. axe of EQUAL WEIGHT (a true comparison).
We're talking AXE so lets say 2.5lbs. (Any Axe, near that weight)..
That's a big knife so lets make it a Bolo with a 16" X 2.5" X 1/4" thick blade.
Both razor sharp.

Which would drop the branch quicker?
A standing dead pine tree 12" diameter. Which puts it on the ground 1st.?
I was going to add splitting a seasoned log but I don't think it would
be fair to the "knife".
What are your thoughts?
 
I'm no expert, but I would put money on the axe, it has more weight behind the edge in a smaller area.
Just a guess.
 
The knife wouldn't even come close, to a proper axe. There was a time when I would have argued differently but that was when I had only used either poorly made or poorly maintained axes. It wasn't until I restored my first vintage American axe that I realized how handy a really well made axe is.

In my opinion a good axe especially for chopping has a thin bit and over all profile. It has convex cheeks aka high centerline or phantom bevels, a smooth ramp, a decent balance either from a pole or the haft, a thin comfortable handle with a well made swell, and a rasor sharp edge as it is extremely easy to put a fine edge and that little effort leads to an edge that will last longer in use.

You will not find these features on most all axes made today. Not the Swedish hand forged axes, and not even some of the more expensive axes. The only examples that come to mind are racing axes.

Why this matters in my experience is because of the way an axe was designed to work. It both cuts into the wood and wedges it apart simultaneously. I've seen a lot of misconceptions that an axe with a thin bit and flat narrow cheeks will chop better because it will be able to cut in deeper. I have an axe with this profile and I can say it does not. It behaives more like a knife. It will cut into the wood and become wedged. If you watch videos of axes like this or knives for that matter in use you will see the user twist or shimmy the axe or Knife out of the cut. This is because the wood rather than being forced up and away from the cut is wedged tightly against the cheeks of the axe.

With an older axe that has a high centerline and narrow bit it will cut deep while at the same time forcing the wood apart. The high centerline means that only the center of the cheeks will contact the cut reducing friction and allowing for a deeper cut and a wedging effect that will "pop chips" as we say. A knife or hand forged Swedish axe simply can not replicate this in my experience.

I'm sure that others will disagree but this is my opinion based on my experience on the matter.
 
The knife wouldn't even come close, to a proper axe. There was a time when I would have argued differently but that was when I had only used either poorly made or poorly maintained axes. It wasn't until I restored my first vintage American axe that I realized how handy a really well made axe is.

In my opinion a good axe especially for chopping has a thin bit and over all profile. It has convex cheeks aka high centerline or phantom bevels, a smooth ramp, a decent balance either from a pole or the haft, a thin comfortable handle with a well made swell, and a rasor sharp edge as it is extremely easy to put a fine edge and that little effort leads to an edge that will last longer in use.

You will not find these features on most all axes made today. Not the Swedish hand forged axes, and not even some of the more expensive axes. The only examples that come to mind are racing axes.

Why this matters in my experience is because of the way an axe was designed to work. It both cuts into the wood and wedges it apart simultaneously. I've seen a lot of misconceptions that an axe with a thin bit and flat narrow cheeks will chop better because it will be able to cut in deeper. I have an axe with this profile and I can say it does not. It behaives more like a knife. It will cut into the wood and become wedged. If you watch videos of axes like this or knives for that matter in use you will see the user twist or shimmy the axe or Knife out of the cut. This is because the wood rather than being forced up and away from the cut is wedged tightly against the cheeks of the axe.

With an older axe that has a high centerline and narrow bit it will cut deep while at the same time forcing the wood apart. The high centerline means that only the center of the cheeks will contact the cut reducing friction and allowing for a deeper cut and a wedging effect that will "pop chips" as we say. A knife or hand forged Swedish axe simply can not replicate this in my experience.

I'm sure that others will disagree but this is my opinion based on my experience on the matter.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Axe would win, but if I could only have an axe or a knife, I would probably pick the knife.
 
I will say it will take a hell of a knife to match in weight a axe with a 2.5 # head plus about 26" handle.
About a typical boys axe. I don't think a knife that size would be very useful overall.
Now I think something like a BK4 at 1 lbs and about 14.5" long, still lighter then a 14" hatchet would be a better overall tool. The hatchet might chop better but I doute it. The knife would be better at everything else.
At least IMO.
 
Larger work knives like bolos, and "felling" axes are both made for chopping.
So it's a fine question. The length of the striking edge hitting a small diameter is
about the same from both, so both are concentrating momentum and weight to
a similar area. So which would go deeper, the thicker edge or the thinner?
Yeah, That's a big heavy knife but pound for pound is the question.
 
Quote ;
In my opinion a good axe especially for chopping has a thin bit and over all profile. It has convex cheeks aka high centerline or phantom bevels, a smooth ramp, a decent balance either from a pole or the haft, a thin comfortable handle with a well made swell, and a rasor sharp edge as it is extremely easy to put a fine edge and that little effort leads to an edge that will last longer in use.

You will not find these features on most all axes made today. Not the Swedish hand forged axes, and not even some of the more expensive axes. The only examples that come to mind are racing axes; End Quote.


Does the profile (angle) of the wedge greatly effect the depth of cut?
The thicker the wedge the easier it gets unstuck, but that's not the question.
If we took a 2X12 and layed it along on it's side which would go deeper hitting that 2" wide surface,
the bolo or the axe.
The bolo would just about go clean through, would a good axe?
I really don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I'm gathering info for future plans.
Mike
 
...The thicker the wedge the easier it gets unstuck, but that's not the question.

Wouldn't the ease of getting it unstuck be a real factor in the competition described in the original post (racing to cut a 6" oak branch, and a 12" standing tree)?
 
I'm guessing you're the type that thinks that 20 degrees per side is actually an edge?...

I don't, because 20 degrees per side is a ridiculous 40 degree wedge, and that is no edge at all, no matter how much you polish it and show you can shave your face with it, or feather hairs into curls, or whatever useless trick you may think of...

I think an edge begins at around 12-13 degrees per side, and real sharpness begins around 10 per side: The Randall Model 12 you see chopping wood in the picture is set at around 10 degrees per side, scraping up a bit on one side, and has been used as a benchmark mule to compare to all my other knives, so it has around a thousand chops into it if not more, and has never shown any damage other than dulling...

It is true many knives can't take it, with power-burned apexes or bad temper and whatnot, and that is precisely why my 12 is used as a benchmark...

You show me an axe that is 20 degrees inclusive, and it will have nearly no splitting power...: Axes work by splitting, because they have spare momentum to expend into a lateral force, which is why convex edges works for axes, and fail miserably to improve performance on knives...

And don't bother trying to convert me to convex edges on knives: I've tried all the permutations, including zero convex edges, and they are all inferior in performance for any knife use... Out of some factories they do hold their own by being thinner, which is like comparing apple to oranges... Some convex edge proponent even go as far as to claim convex edges cut meat better than V-edges, which goes to show they will say just about anything...

If you are telling me a 10 degree per side axe edge will work better while chopping wood, I'd be curious to see it... I've seen the hillbilly trick of shaving with an axe, and I still don't think their edge bevel is anywhere near the 0.020" edge shoulder that is the standards on Randalls.

Sadly, I think the only person who would contest that a knife should be sharper than any axe is someone who has never seen a truly sharp knife, one with at least a 0.020" bevel and with a 20 degrees inclusive edge...

In a way you are excused, and I understand why you would think knives are not sharper than axes, because most of the time I have to either buy Randalls, a bit narrow in style for me, or completely re-grind thinner the rest of the fixed-blade crap out there...

Gaston


Since the above comment seems to be what sparked this thread I figured I would respond to it here. I wanted to clarify that axes should not have a 40° bevel as stated above. I did not want to derail the other thread any further, but I'm happy to clear up the misconceptions about our hillbilly tools in this thread ;-)

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm08232327

Per the US Forest Service on putting an edge bevel on an axe. If you look towards the bottom of the page you will see an example of a bit gauge. Since axes are not sharpened with a guided system. Honestly I’ve never used a guided system on any of my edged tools. Looking at the bit gauge it is clear that an axe can have a variety of bit thicknesses or angles depending on how you want to look at it. Some being more acute than 20°

The page also states “Individual preferences for the bevel angle vary. On double-bit axes, a more acute angle, about 20 degrees, may be preferred on one of the bits with a blunter angle, about 40 degrees, on the other bit”. For those not familiar with the concept a double bit felling axe often had two different edges. One was fine and well maintained for efficient chopping, the other blunt and used for work near rocks or dirt where the edge was at higher risk of damage. This was to preserve your good edge for the brunt of the work. This statement should make it clear that an axe should indeed be sharp by anyone's standards. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that with an axe the angle of the edge generally continues on throughout the cheeks all the way to the back of the pole. With a knife you typically have two separate bevels one to form the edge called the secondary or relief bevel and the primary which does most of the initial thinning from the spin or some point below the spine down to the start of the secondary. This is called the primary bevel. It may help to look at it this way an axe is like a knife that only has one bevel the primary and no flats, so the angle of the edge continues until the pole or spine is reached. The edge angle can be the same even if the tool appears to be blunt due to the lack of overall thinness of the tool.

Now I already got into why an axe is made the way it is in my last post. To summarize basically an axe is designed to simultaneously bit deeply into wood and force it apart with a wedging action. This allows the axe to cut deep, not become wedged or stuck in the wood, and clear the wood from the cut efficiently. Because of this an axe for pure chopping is more efficient. Of course someone could always chime in pointing out that a saw can be much more efficient than a knife or axe, but if we are all being honest we use the tools we are passionate about not necessarily the most efficient.

In a way though Gaston is excused, because he has some valid points about edge geometry (thickness of the primary grind just behind the secondary grind or edge), and to a lesser extent secondary or relief bevel angles. A lot of modern knives get these attributes wrong on their knives making for a poorly performing tool. But then again that discussion likely belongs in a different sub forum on this site.
 
Does the profile (angle) of the wedge greatly effect the depth of cut?

Yes, the wood being pushed up and out of the cut allows the bit to continue cutting. Keep in mind when chopping with a too like an axe you are coming in at an angle so as not to do a direct cross cut of the grain. This is the more efficient way of chopping wood. A flat sided tool will become wedged and stop sooner while the axe will move the wood out of the way and continue to cut.


The thicker the wedge the easier it gets unstuck, but that's not the question.

Not entirely true, from an over all veiw on efficiency, pulling a wedged tool out over and over uses more energy and reduces the number of swings a user can take in a given time frame.

If we took a 2X12 and layed it along on it's side which would go deeper hitting that 2" wide surface,
the bolo or the axe.
The bolo would just about go clean through, would a good axe?

If it is to be a chopping tool I would use a hardwood limb for testing vs a thin processed section of softwood. This will give you a better real world representation of the tools ability and test the edges stability better than a clean section of soft lumber.

I really don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I'm gathering info for future plans.
Mike

Need text to post.
 
Larger work knives like bolos, and "felling" axes are both made for chopping.
So it's a fine question. The length of the striking edge hitting a small diameter is
about the same from both, so both are concentrating momentum and weight to
a similar area. So which would go deeper, the thicker edge or the thinner?
Yeah, That's a big heavy knife but pound for pound is the question.

If equal weight, & edge geometry, I say the blade of faster velocity wins.
Thats typically going to be axe as its cutting edge moves upon larger radius of swing.
 
Getting unstuck is certainly part of it. A bolo is a full flat grind tool
with a final bevel, in other words a continuous wedge like an axe.
Repeat strikes are also part of the equation. Not so careful aim or
distance is needed for the bolo. Repeat strikes may be faster.
Everyone cuts at an angle on a tree unless you're using a saw.
The axe will move faster in the swing but how much faster.
The bolo certainly isn't a slouch and will bight deep.
I would guess 4 swings from either on the 6'' branch with
faster to the 4th swing winning.
A 12" tree; The axe hands down.
I carry a folding saw, a medium axe, and a pocketknife for cutting things.
In my opinion the axe wins once you get over 6" or so.
On smaller, the bolo would be digging in or going through before you've adjusted your stance
and gotten your distance for a swing of the axe (average user on both).
Something like a heavy bolo is hard to carry and more dangerous to the user than an axe,
so again I'd go with a medium axe.
Thanks for the input. It helped...
Mike
 
Last edited:
Since the above comment seems to be what sparked this thread I figured I would respond to it here. I wanted to clarify that axes should not have a 40° bevel as stated above. I did not want to derail the other thread any further, but I'm happy to clear up the misconceptions about our hillbilly tools in this thread ;-)

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm08232327

Per the US Forest Service on putting an edge bevel on an axe. If you look towards the bottom of the page you will see an example of a bit gauge. Since axes are not sharpened with a guided system. Honestly I’ve never used a guided system on any of my edged tools. Looking at the bit gauge it is clear that an axe can have a variety of bit thicknesses or angles depending on how you want to look at it. Some being more acute than 20°

The page also states “Individual preferences for the bevel angle vary. On double-bit axes, a more acute angle, about 20 degrees, may be preferred on one of the bits with a blunter angle, about 40 degrees, on the other bit”. For those not familiar with the concept a double bit felling axe often had two different edges. One was fine and well maintained for efficient chopping, the other blunt and used for work near rocks or dirt where the edge was at higher risk of damage. This was to preserve your good edge for the brunt of the work. This statement should make it clear that an axe should indeed be sharp by anyone's standards. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that with an axe the angle of the edge generally continues on throughout the cheeks all the way to the back of the pole. With a knife you typically have two separate bevels one to form the edge called the secondary or relief bevel and the primary which does most of the initial thinning from the spin or some point below the spine down to the start of the secondary. This is called the primary bevel. It may help to look at it this way an axe is like a knife that only has one bevel the primary and no flats, so the angle of the edge continues until the pole or spine is reached. The edge angle can be the same even if the tool appears to be blunt due to the lack of overall thinness of the tool.

Now I already got into why an axe is made the way it is in my last post. To summarize basically an axe is designed to simultaneously bit deeply into wood and force it apart with a wedging action. This allows the axe to cut deep, not become wedged or stuck in the wood, and clear the wood from the cut efficiently. Because of this an axe for pure chopping is more efficient. Of course someone could always chime in pointing out that a saw can be much more efficient than a knife or axe, but if we are all being honest we use the tools we are passionate about not necessarily the most efficient.

In a way though Gaston is excused, because he has some valid points about edge geometry (thickness of the primary grind just behind the secondary grind or edge), and to a lesser extent secondary or relief bevel angles. A lot of modern knives get these attributes wrong on their knives making for a poorly performing tool. But then again that discussion likely belongs in a different sub forum on this site.

Thanks for the input, but what sparked the thread was simple curiosity and a desire for opinions more on the 6" branch than anything.
Like in everything else, preference usually wins anyway.
 
Did anybody take into account aiming and required skill and alertness?

Just saying that little cutting area of an axe (compared to my Kukris) takes a more carefull aim as to not miss and either damage the handle or oneself or others. Kukri blades are so long and have lots of edge on top of the sweet spot and even more below it that even if I miss the most optimal swing it'll very likely still be on target.
Add to that my Klotzness and maybe even tiredness out there and an Axe would be outright dangerous and ineffective while a knife could still do useful work.
An Axe in trained and awake hands of course will be superior but once you add certain kinds of users and conditions to the equation things could shift in favor of a knife.
 
PEG-"It's like asking the question car vs boat? One will hardly substitute for the other"
My Tongan friend Ulu and I are going to compare his outrigger canoe to my Toyota 4x4. I will let you know which is best.
 
Thanks for the input, but what sparked the thread was simple curiosity and a desire for opinions more on the 6" branch than anything.
Like in everything else, preference usually wins anyway.

You got it preference will always win. I have no problems with someone wanting to use a large camp knife. However this is a sub forum for axe enthusiast so its safe to expect folks to perfer an axe. I'd like to think we have some pretty good reasons for our preference, but like I said there is a guy somewhere with a chainsaw shaking his head at all of us.

A 6 inch live oak branch isn't something I personally would care to tackle with a knife. It may not sound like much but when chopping it can take some effort. I speak from experience of chopping through Osage, maple, pear and other unidentified hardwoods in various stages of dryness. I can tell you that live or wet wood cuts like butter compared to the dryed stuff ;-) it wouldn't be much of a taks for my boys axe with a 2.25 lbs head, but it would take a bit longer using a hatchet. The longer handle as pointed out earlier makes a big difference, as does the added momentum of the heavier head.

10483126304_0ea17f3bf6_h.jpg
 
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