Axes from Karelia (Mikhail Artemeyev)

Ernest DuBois said:
There are a couple I particularly like, like the original pictured along side its reproduction the ones we could call Kareliaian/Connecticut looking. I see this pattern or close to it called Cossack, an indication of the place where it's known? Does anybody know more of this axe form? What would justify the unfortunate label and can something be done about it before it's too late? Also I have to say that I prefer his handling of the handle on his double lugged axes to ones that get the handle trimmed to the out-line of the upper lugs. Just cut the excess off straight there and be done with it, I say. And it looks cleaner. Objectively speaking, he covers a wide range, from fairly modern to ancient.
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One of Jake's photos:

FG7ptjz.jpg

IMG-5495.jpg


I see the influence. I don't know who called it a Cossack pattern but that seems... dimunitive?

He has some handle carving skills as well.
 
Ernest DuBois said:
Still it'd be good to nip this Cossack business in the bud before it takes hold so Manazeya it is.
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Yes,Ernest,very good idea.
Every once in a while there pops up a joker that would attribute one type of axe or another to cossacks specifically(this type here is news to me actually).
These attempts never come off,as the cossacks were semi-nomads who while certainly posessed attributes of material culture all their own were never that serious about forging,or building with wood,not to any degree where their own characteristic axes would develop.
They were warriors,raiders,marauders,very adaptable,and were surrounded by plenty of other,more sedentary people from whom they got their tools,in many different regional styles.

Our usual Thanks:) to Agent_H for making photos bigger and better,that axe of MA's on that last photo says "Mangazeya" along the poll,in chisel marks,so why not let that be the type name?

But there is also a fairly wide-spread among historians/archaeologists "XV-XVII c.c. russian type";it is also adopted by Vassiliy Korshun's typology of "russian" axes.

I've not had any time to spare lately,my mssgs weirdly cryptic at times...:(
I'd like to add that this type,the Mang.,is wonderful and mysterious(i've had a few go's at it and was roundly defeated;my hat's off to MA,he's a great smith!)
It has a reverse taper in the eye(my feeling is that it's an Ugric tool and has nothing whatever to do with "russians",whomever we mean by that term),it's angle of convergence is very odd in that it's steep,yet somehow very graceful,it's a short compact powerful tool,like some mini-piilu or something...
I've seen photos of one whose element analysis showed no trace of Carbon,but lots of Phosphorus...very ancient method,quite rare in axe culture(P radically promotes work-hardening)...
Anyhoo,this shape fascinates me,and one day i Will bang together an acceptable version:)
 
Yes,Jay,than you,MA really does beautiful work,and he's consistently brilliant at interpreting older axe shapes...

Here's a link to a report on a latest archaeological dig at Mangazeya,https://vk.com/doc9821911_454376989?hash=1d34722dbacc6de07f&dl=4269bfc50790e46002

Towards the end there's a number of photos,some of the excavations showing foundations and other remaining parts of structures.
Among those there are photos of similarly constructed structures taken in the nearby villages.
All that gives us an idea of the kinds of work that these axes were forged to perform,the joinery,and even an occasional glimpse into the finish surface...
 
jake pogg said:
Yes,Jay,than you,MA really does beautiful work,and he's consistently brilliant at interpreting older axe shapes...

Here's a link to a report on a latest archaeological dig at Mangazeya,https://vk.com/doc9821911_454376989?hash=1d34722dbacc6de07f&dl=4269bfc50790e46002

Towards the end there's a number of photos,some of the excavations showing foundations and other remaining parts of structures.
Among those there are photos of similarly constructed structures taken in the nearby villages.
All that gives us an idea of the kinds of work that these axes were forged to perform,the joinery,and even an occasional glimpse into the finish surface...
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here are a couple of screenshots of the axes:
C429-AF5-A-0497-497-E-81-BD-24-B7-EC94-C637.png

5-E47-DAE0-7600-4-BE4-9637-37-DC21-D7-DBF8.jpg
 
Jay,thank you,but i don't deserve the credit-i simply make use of my native language to take advantage of someone else's research.
More and more often i don't give credit where it's due,and there's a reason for it:When i say "Mordor" i use the concept advisedly.I really do believe something unspeakably foul is brewing in what's become of USSR.To put it crudely one may compare it to Germany in the years of oh,1935-ish.
You know this button,"like",in the lower right corner of this mssg?There's somewhat over 200 people today serving real prison sentences for pushing that button,on someone's FB posting or the like...(as in years,4,6,some-12...).
I've had to disassociate myself from all my old comrades in the axe world there,for many of them were carried away into supporting that gross,authoritarian regime headed by psychopathic thugs.
(some that i'm not sure about i dare not ask,it could be all their freedom is worth for half dozen years to come to talk about it in electronic form).
It's become very much a Mass psychosis there by now.The sentiment against anyone/-thing "Western" is very strong.
In the late 30-ies in Stalin's era USSR a number of historians/archaeologists were imprisoned and/or shot for ascribing some artifacts or events to Western origins(like some very obviously Scandinavian axe types,btw:).It was an official criminal charge,termed by press and official court documents the "Pernicious Normanism":)

It's not quite back to that point yet,but i lost all passion for being a liaison between two cultures...Now i just sneak in "there",and pilfer what i need,and avoid references and links,for i believe that history and science belong to Everyone,and loathe their being exploited by scum...

I'm heartily sorry to bring politics into our sensible,rational world here...:(...Sorrier yet to cast a shadow on Jay's cheerful thread...(Jay and i have been friends a long while and he knows a bit about my paranoia and i hope he'll forgive me).
 
jake pogg said:
...for i believe that history and science belong to Everyone,and loathe their being exploited by scum...
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Jake, I can not convey to you how much I wholeheartedly agree. And that being the case, times are clearly as desperate as I've seen them in my lifetime. Not only for the obvious reasons, but even the hoarding of knowledge by institutions of higher learning. Which they most definitely do not share freely. One need only look to the case of Aaron Swartz to realize to what I refer. I won't go on, but suffice it to say that knowledge of all sorts of is being defiled on a daily basis. Knowledge does not want to be locked up, such constriction being antipodal to it's existence. To be discovered or realized and then locked away is base, I think.

Anti-intellectualism is about as scary a human behavior as they come. Be it for monetary reasons or manipulation of minds. It's unnerving and even frightening to me when the free exchange of ideas becomes a threat to those responsible for governance.
 
jake pogg said:
Jay,thank you,but i don't deserve the credit-i simply make use of my native language to take advantage of someone else's research.
More and more often i don't give credit where it's due,and there's a reason for it:When i say "Mordor" i use the concept advisedly.I really do believe something unspeakably foul is brewing in what's become of USSR.To put it crudely one may compare it to Germany in the years of oh,1935-ish.
You know this button,"like",in the lower right corner of this mssg?There's somewhat over 200 people today serving real prison sentences for pushing that button,on someone's FB posting or the like...(as in years,4,6,some-12...).
I've had to disassociate myself from all my old comrades in the axe world there,for many of them were carried away into supporting that gross,authoritarian regime headed by psychopathic thugs.
(some that i'm not sure about i dare not ask,it could be all their freedom is worth for half dozen years to come to talk about it in electronic form).
It's become very much a Mass psychosis there by now.The sentiment against anyone/-thing "Western" is very strong.
In the late 30-ies in Stalin's era USSR a number of historians/archaeologists were imprisoned and/or shot for ascribing some artifacts or events to Western origins(like some very obviously Scandinavian axe types,btw:).It was an official criminal charge,termed by press and official court documents the "Pernicious Normanism":)

It's not quite back to that point yet,but i lost all passion for being a liaison between two cultures...Now i just sneak in "there",and pilfer what i need,and avoid references and links,for i believe that history and science belong to Everyone,and loathe their being exploited by scum...

I'm heartily sorry to bring politics into our sensible,rational world here...:(...Sorrier yet to cast a shadow on Jay's cheerful thread...(Jay and i have been friends a long while and he knows a bit about my paranoia and i hope he'll forgive me).
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Hi Jake,

All is well. Good times,buddy. Let the good times roll . :)
 
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