Axis Lock Vs Frame Lock

Unbreakable

Unbreakable

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Sep 21, 2002
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Hello all. Looking for a little knowledge. I have a Benchmade RUKUS... Hell of a knife. It's the only Axis type locking knife I've ever owned. Seems smooth and solid. I have traditionally went with frame locks. I'm looking at the Benchamde Skirmish... it has a few more features that I like (Tip down cary and frame lock). But my question is... which is the stonger locking system... seems like if it's done right the liner lock would have to be fail proof right? Now I know some guys like one over the other just because they like it... But I'd really like to hear some opinions... I want the Skirmish... but I don't want to stop carrying the RUKUS if it is the superior design and will be less apt to fail on me. Thanks for any info.
 
The AXIS lock is supposed to be Benchmade's strongest locking system, stronger than the frame lock on the Skirmish. The lock on the Skirmish is still plenty strong though and shouldn't fail under normal use.
 
Under normal use, the titanium framelock is great (on the Skirmish or on the Bradley knives Benchmade makes). The only problem will be if there's a lateral force applied to the lockbar that's strong enough to open it (like a twist when in your hand), but that's going to be almost impossible. Even an axis lock has been reported to open from a blade strike, if you believe some postings... If the lock engages fully, it will hold (listen for the click with either lock).

This is a minority opinion, mentioned because you said you like tip-down carry, but I think the only real problem with the axis is that (except for one, or maybe two, Benchmade model(s)) it permits only tip-up carry while using the pocket clip, which can be a problem if the thumbstuds catch on something when withdrawing the knife. For example, in a back pocket of jeans, the thumbstuds can and will frequently catch on the tripled-denim-layer seam of the pocket, and when you withdraw the knife the stud will grab the fabric and open the blade enough to give you one hell of a slice on your fingers. Axis lock knives without a thumbstud are very rare items (the Griptilian with the sheepsfoot blade and hole).

I wish they made more axis lock models with opening holes, and I wish they would design more of the axis lock knives to permit mounting a pocket clip on the pivot area. The standard pocket clip from Benchmade has a large area for the screws, but they've made clips with smaller mounting areas for several knives, such as the 690 series.
 
The Axis lock is many times stronger and more reliable as a locking system for a folder period. About the only disadvantage to some axis locking folders is the overall thickness vs a frame lock which can be quite thin by comparison. I like frame locks fine and own many but in answer to your question of which is less apt to fail, and which is superior in design the only answer in my opinion is the axis lock.

STR
 
JML said:
The only problem will be if there's a lateral force applied to the lockbar that's strong enough to open it (like a twist when in your hand)
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Seems like the meat on my hand would give long before the titanium in the frame would though... I guess I just don't know enough about the Axis... it opens and closes so easily that it makes me nervous LOL... and that damn blade is so big and sharp it would just be the end of my fingers if it came down.

How is the Axis stronger than a titanium frame lock? Anyone got any numbers of Lbs per Sq. Inch that these things can take?
 
STR said:
The Axis lock is many times stronger and more reliable as a locking system for a folder period. About the only disadvantage to some axis locking folders is the overall thickness vs a frame lock which can be quite thin by comparison. I like frame locks fine and own many but in answer to your question of which is less apt to fail, and which is superior in design the only answer in my opinion is the axis lock.

STR
Click to expand...


Thank you. Can you give some examples maybe or anything else. Basically I'm wanting to get over my fear of this new locking system. It's new to me anyway... I can tell it's far superior to a liner lock... but frame locks always seemed so solid.

What kinda abuse can the Axis take like say a shot to the spine while open... How much weight can be applied to the lock in theory before it would fail?

Same questions about the Skirmish's lock as well.

I appreciate the info.
 
Unbreakable said:
What kinda abuse can the Axis take like say a shot to the spine while open... How much weight can be applied to the lock in theory before it would fail?
Click to expand...

I'd love to see some official numers, but I've heard they fail somewhere in the 800-1,200 pound plus range. For the AXIS to fail the pivot would have to break,or the lock bar would have to be pushed through the dual steel liners and whatever other handle materia is used on the outside of the steel liners.

If you look at a titanium frame lock, check out how thin the material is where the lock bar flexes. Supposedly this is where the locks fail when under force.

I can't see myself ever doing anything that would put enough force on a folder to break an AXIS, frame lock, etc. I don't plan to hammer my knife into something and hang from the handle, jump on the handle, etc. :)
 
In my thinking, the Axis lock has more parts that could fail vs. a framelock. I dunno....I was just wondering out loud.
 
The axis does have more parts that can fail. But nevertheless, it's the stronger and (more importantly) more reliable lock format, in my experience.

However, a knife is more than its lock. Unbreakable, the Skirmish's lock is still very strong and reliable, it's a great knife. You'd be crazy not to pick it up if you like it
 
As I wrote in the thread STR linked, the thin section is probably far stronger under compression, frame or liner lock. I've yet to see any reports of failure in the cutout from stress fracture. It would take ten's of thousands of pounds.

Sideforces from the ramp bevel will cause unlocking in a frame or liner lock much earlier. The Axis directs it's force entirely in shear on the pivot and locking pin, which is actually metal's weakest ability - but I doubt anybody has cut a pivot/pin through hanging off the handle.

All folding knives are subject to lock failure - and some short tang fixed blades will break off at the handle. It's best to keep that in mind when using, and not expect total unqualified reliability. I don't even trust crowbars - I've got two teenage boys who bent a 4 foot digging bar - which points out anything can be misused.
 
STR said:
Read this thread it will answer a lot of your questions about why.

STR

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460936
Click to expand...

I see... so when most failures do happen it's the liner locks and not the frame locks that do it. Well that Sucks... I have a Swamp Rat Rat Trap that I love and it's a liner lock. LOL. And I guess I should feel pretty safe in the hands of my RUKUS. But I think I'll get the Skirmish anyway just because it's so sexy and keep them both.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
The axis does have more parts that can fail. But nevertheless, it's the stronger and (more importantly) more reliable lock format, in my experience.

However, a knife is more than its lock. Unbreakable, the Skirmish's lock is still very strong and reliable, it's a great knife. You'd be crazy not to pick it up if you like it
Click to expand...


Thank you... You've helped me make up my mind and unfortunately empty my wallet. I'm going to go with the Skirmish...

To all... thank you for the education... It always makes me feel better when I learn a little something more about my Blades and Guns.
 
tirod3 said:
As I wrote in the thread STR linked, the thin section is probably far stronger under compression, frame or liner lock. I've yet to see any reports of failure in the cutout from stress fracture. It would take ten's of thousands of pounds.
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Tens of thousands of pounds? What are you basing that on? Lock strength tests have been done and most fail under 1,000 pounds from what I've seen. I think I saw something about frame locks failing in the 200-300 pounds range but I can't remember exacty which models were tested. Again, that's still strong for what most people will need a knife to do.
 
The integral lock types fail much more often long before the maximum strength of the lock is anywhere near reached because they spring off the blade and let it close but when they do hold it still won't take as much as you think to collapse the lock on an integral style folder particularly when the cut out is .032 or there abouts. Take a piece of .032 titanium one day and just play with it bending it around some.

Those tests showing extreme weight like one mentioned on another thread where the Strider was tested against the Fulcrum II are more of a pivot strength test than the lock because they test both but it does put stress on the lock also.

You want to test the lock hang free weight on the folder from cable running through the lanyard. It won't take as much as you think and since this is more realistic of how the forces of use are going to be applied anyway it is a more sensible test for the lock. Most liner locks that hold fail by collapse at between 65 to 100 pounds of free weight. Some will hold 100 pounds of free weight but collapse just over that. Most, even after they hold that weight successfully will have very bad vertical blade play and or extreme lock travel across the tang after this if not both.

Based on Spydercos equations for their test methods the longer the handle and blade the more leverage the weight on the tail end has that far from the lock though so the same amount of weight translates to more at the lock on a longer knife than it will on a shorter one.

Saying that a lock can hold 1000 pounds leads people to believe they can open the knife hammer it into tree or a wall and use it as a leg up trusting it completely not to defeat and let them fall. I know of guys that have done that with Fulcrum II knives using the lock bolt for the lockbar and I was told of one story about an Axis lock folder used in Iraq for this after jamming the blade open in a rock wall to look out over the top. In these cases the owners of the knives apparently had gotten away with it. Try that with your favorite frame lock or liner lock though and you'll ruin a good knife.

I don't believe any currrently made frame lock is going to hold a full grown man standing on it open using it as a leg up. The strongest frame locks may hold 150 pounds of free weight on a cable through the lanyard temporarily but I doubt most would get to that before collapse. If one did pull that off the guy standing on it better make sure he keeps the majority of his weight as close to the pivot as he can because if his weight transfers out too far toward the lanyard it will fold over and down quickly. Most would simply close because the pressure would reach critical and cause the lock to physically release. In this event I'd be surprised if part of the lock face didn't shear off though.

STR
 
If this is solely in refernce to production frame locks, I would tend to agree. However, if we are talking custom, Anthony Lombardo tested Darrel Ralph's Madd Maxx a few years back, he used them to climb into a tree. I don't know how far they were driven into the tree and I don't know how long he stood on each one. I do know Anthony is not petite and that the locks didn't fail.
 
Again, it would be interesting to see how he stood on it and where to pull that off though, as well as, how thin the lock relief is and how many there are.

If frame locks were that strong, and more importantly reliable, Sal Glesser would be making more of them at Spyderco than just the very few handful he has produced over the years. As a result of his test results though he felt more compelled to create a compression frame lock that could actually hold the weight he expected it to.

For example one could say that the Military folder is a very good strong reliable folder, and it is right up there with the best of them in liner lock standings. And for marketings sake you could promote high numbers for lock reference regarding the strength of it and say it can support 400 pounds. But when you factor in that 4" blade embedded in something during use and one inch in for penetration of the tip then you can figure it translates to 133 pounds of force needed at the tail or lanyard end to make 400 pounds of force at the lock and pivot area to make the lock defeat. This is using Sal's own test results to figure this number. He basically gives the stainless steel liner lock on the Military knife a 100 pound per inch of blade length rating. Or his heavy duty liner lock. Very heavy duty would be 200 pounds per inch of blade length.

This point has been brought up time and again by many testers. In the reference above Hob brought it up on another thread on another forum but people in love with integrals have trouble swallowing it usually.

Sal's response to Hob was fairly easy to find. Here it is for reference for anyone interested in it.

"HoB's points are in agreement with our findings and the reason we began to measure and test for lock-strength in the first place.

Turning quickly and hitting the tip of an open folder on a door or other solid object is an example. The leverage arm of the blade to the pivot magnifies greatly the force on the pivot. The longer the blade, the greater the need for a sronger lock.

While reliability is far more important than ultimate lock strength, the awareness of actual "break" numbers helps us develop and produce a safer, more reliable product for you. Our standard is inch/lbs per inch of blade to keep the blade length in perspective.

I guess that it is only important if you use the product.

sal"

STR
 
Dirk said:
If this is solely in refernce to production frame locks, I would tend to agree. However, if we are talking custom, Anthony Lombardo tested Darrel Ralph's Madd Maxx a few years back, he used them to climb into a tree. I don't know how far they were driven into the tree and I don't know how long he stood on each one. I do know Anthony is not petite and that the locks didn't fail.
Click to expand...

Well, this is essentially the same stunt that CS shows for their products. In one of their videos someone hangs from the folders driven into a wooden beam. Just as STR already said the problem is that if you look closely he grips very close to the pivot, actually part of his pinky is on the blade itself. So I don't see a problem of someone using a framelock to climb a tree, if he stands mostly right over the pivot area, but this is not how you load a knife in normal use. Very close to the pivot, the strength numbers are really high, but you have to take leverage into account. Even the strongest locks (no matter what type) don't support much beyond 200 lbs when loaded at either end of the knife (tip or butt).
 
I can't say where he stood on the knife handle. I do know Darrel told Anthony not to hold back on his testing and try to destroy the knife. I will see if I can find the picture Darrel sent me of Anthony climbing the tree.

No arguement on general frame lock strength, they definetly have a limit and as the numbers indicate, it is generally far less than many would like to believe. Even with that knowledge, a properly made frame lock is more than strong enough to handle the tasks a folding knife was meant to handle with plenty of strength left over as a safety margin.

Sal's lock on the Chinook is my favorite, simple and massively strong. I have two issues with the Axis Lock, the omega springs are the weak link and I have heard of them breaking before. Next is the location of the lock stud. I have accidentally disengaged the lock when I moved my thumb from the spine to the side to get a better grip. My thumb hit the stud and disengaged the lock and the knife closed about a 1/4 of the way. This problem is fixed for me, by taking the lock stud down a bit so it is more difficult to get to.
 
I love the AXIS lock, it's smooth, real smooth, and super strong, But if you drop it in the mud it won't work. AT ALL. I did it, then I did and experiement, I took my 710 and my SMF and dropped them both in the same thick mud, The 710 wouldn't work till I took it inside and ran it under the hot water and cleaned it out with a q-tip and got it so it would move across the blade tang. The SMF, the frame lock would just push the crap put of the way and engage like it regularly does. And then add to the fact hand pressure will push anything out of the way. That is in my opinion the only real drawback to the AXIS.
 
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