Axis Lock Vs Frame Lock

I have had a few axis locks that the release buttons stuck out too far on in my opinion also. In fact as I recall that was the reason I got rid of it. I also note the thickness of a lot of them which bugs me.

I own one axis lock, several frame locks and lots and lots of lockbacks. I like frame locks fine and have not had problems with them for reliability personally. But when it comes to strength I'd have to say thats not their strong point but not the worst thing about them. The worst is the wear issues I've seen and experienced. No matter what I do or what I get, or what its made of , if its an integral lock its going to wear faster than I would like on the lock (especially if its titanium) and eventually travel across the tang all the way but otherwise I am happy with using them until there is blade play vertically. Then I usually either get another one, or repair it or I rebuild the lock side of it altogether and start over.

STR
 
killerskill said:
But if you drop it in the mud it won't work. AT ALL. I did it, then I did and experiement, I took my 710 and my SMF and dropped them both in the same thick mud, The 710 wouldn't work till I took it inside and ran it under the hot water and cleaned it out with a q-tip and got it so it would move across the blade tang.
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Never thought about it. Good point.
 
Unbreakable said:
Hello all. Looking for a little knowledge. I have a Benchmade RUKUS... Hell of a knife. It's the only Axis type locking knife I've ever owned. Seems smooth and solid. I have traditionally went with frame locks. I'm looking at the Benchamde Skirmish... it has a few more features that I like (Tip down cary and frame lock). But my question is... which is the stonger locking system... seems like if it's done right the liner lock would have to be fail proof right? Now I know some guys like one over the other just because they like it... But I'd really like to hear some opinions... I want the Skirmish... but I don't want to stop carrying the RUKUS if it is the superior design and will be less apt to fail on me. Thanks for any info.
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Both locks are very reliable and strong.Unless you are abusing the knife those locks won't fail you.Keep carrying your Ruckus but also get that Skirmish.It is a great knife and you can never have too many good knives.
 
killerskill said:
I did it, then I did and experiement, I took my 710 and my SMF and dropped them both in the same thick mud, The 710 wouldn't work till I took it inside and ran it under the hot water and cleaned it out with a q-tip and got it so it would move across the blade tang.
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Did you just drop them in the mud and pick them up, or did you sit there and pack mud into the inner workins of the knives? It's tempting to try this. I know I have burried and AXIS lock knife in sand and took it out and it locked up fine, but the action was gritty until I cleaned it out.

I would think if the mud was able to flow into the AXIS lock it would be able to be pushed out of the way by the lock, unless it was left to dry and harden in the knife. Also if there's mud that a knife can fall into and sink and become flooded through with mud you would think there would also be some water around to rinse it out. :)
 
Sorry for the confusion - I did not mean test weight hanging off the handle or blade, but the rated strength of the specific metal as quoted from spec sheets - as in tensile, compression, shear, yield, etc.

And I'm lined up to buy the first folder that could take tens of thousands of pounds in hang weight, as soon as I hear of it I'll hook up the utility trailer to haul it home. :D

Mud testing is an interesting concept - tried it with the HK91 when it was first available in the '70's (darn right it cycled and fired, forgedabout the ARmalites.) Knives designed with large operating clearances allow more gunk to fall through, just like properly designed firearms, and less difficulty getting into "battery." After all, you might not notice the thing jammed with mud when you low crawled to shoot that antelope 600 yards away, and now the closest thing is your limited water supply.

Framelock vs Axis in a mud test? At first glance, I'd lean toward the framelock, as it generally has fewer internal obstacles to lockup. Dried mud would probably stop any folder.
 
Do these statements about the AXIS lock pertain to other similar locks such as the Kershaw Stud-Lock, SOG Arc-Lock, etc.?

Just a note, I was able to close a couple of Poliwogs by pressing down (fairly hard) on the blade with my left hand (holding handle with right hand). Not sure how similar the Poliwog's lock is to AXIS. I just know it's a ball with a spring.
 
I ask the same question on the Benchmade forum. Here was the answer I got from benchmade support:

We've talked about publishing our test data. Ideally, any published data should come from an independant lab. That way there's no bias and all knives get tested in the same manner.

For what it's worth, in our in house tests the average Axis lock's closed break strength is 31% stronger than the 630 (incidently, the 630 came in at 111% stronger than two competitor mechanisms to the Axis, so it's by no means a weak lock!).

Hope that helps!
 
STR said:
if its an integral lock its going to wear faster than I would like on the lock (especially if its titanium) and eventually travel across the tang all the way
STR
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Please excuse the newbie question. I would think that if the lock traveled across to the other side, that the blade accidentally closing would be harder. What are the negatives to excessive lock travel?
 
JSR said:
Do these statements about the AXIS lock pertain to other similar locks such as the Kershaw Stud-Lock, SOG Arc-Lock, etc.?

Just a note, I was able to close a couple of Poliwogs by pressing down (fairly hard) on the blade with my left hand (holding handle with right hand). Not sure how similar the Poliwog's lock is to AXIS. I just know it's a ball with a spring.
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That speaks of a defective ballbearing lock. If this is your knife, you should send it in. I have seen the interior of the Arclock and I have the stud lock. Of course it is always a matter of execution but in principle these should be all very strong mechanisms, that involve pushing a pin through the liner (or blade on the Studlock) upon failure. Depending on pin and liner thickness they should hold a lot of weight. Personally, I like the Studlock a lot, because it is so transparent, you see immediately when something goes wrong. A lot of reliability in that.
 
Please excuse the newbie question. I would think that if the lock traveled across to the other side, that the blade accidentally closing would be harder. What are the negatives to excessive lock travel?
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No excuse necessary. Its a good question. The negative is that the lock can no longer self adjust for wear once it travels all the way across the tang but it will continue to wear and indent from continued use resulting in a loose blade that moves up and down (vertical blade play) during use. Then once vertical movement begins it starts to tear up the lock all that much faster by the continued indenting of the harder blade into it to the point that it eventually will get what I term 'floppy lose' becoming an annoyance to use at best or a retired knife at worst. Some companies will repair this for you at N/C, others will charge you to do so and say it is 'normal' wear. In my experience it is normal wear when it happens years down the road, but the ones that this develops on within the first year are in my opinion knives that should be covered although many do develop blade play in less time than this actually.

On some liner locks that wear so they eventually travel all the way across the tang to the opposite side of the blade they can and do often times get wedged in between the same space as that which the washer sits. On some I have seen like the Ka-Bar Dozier designed Thorn this allows the blade to rotate all the way back around pinning the spine of the blade on your hand. Some makers and manufacturers make the non lock side washer bigger in diameter just to prevent the lock from getting into that space. Others make sure the washer is a thinner stock than the lock is but if the pivot is lose the lock can still work its way into it many times and I have seen this also.

In other words self adjustment is just a kinder more gentle way of saying self destruction because the truth of the matter is that an integral lock by design begins to wear and continuely do so from the first time it is opened and closed until the last. Its the nature of the beast as they say and while it may be true that all lock types will wear a bit none wear as fast or as bad as the integral style we call liner and frame locks.

STR
 
Got my skirmish today and it's really nice. I was looking at how it locks up and it looks much like this photo from the above linked thread
Strider_RC_Lockup_01.gif

Why is this a good thing? It looks like the bottom of the blade is ground at an angle to prevent the locking bar from coming even further under the blade... why only half-engage the blade? Wouldn't it be stronger if it engaged it dead center? Or even better came all the way across to touch the inside of the other handle? Seems like this would make it impossible to close on your hand... Thoughts anyone?
 
I haven't seen the kind of wear STR relates - but he's seen a lot of knives for repair come his way. I do see where integral locks can wear faster than lockbacks or bars.

I enve daydreamed up a self adjusting Axis type lock to ensure it would last decades, but what's the point? Lockbacks do that already. It's the onehanded ease of use that I prefer, and absent a springless OTF, I settle for the simplicity of framelock.

Not that dreamland has to settle for that, oh no, now I imagineer framelocks with no engagement ramps - just mating "dovetails". And I'm probably not the first.
 
Seriously... Instead of a ramp... why not a square notch? Wouldn't wear and it would be apt to be rock solid I'd think.
 
I don't mean to come across as if I don't use or even own integral locks. I like them ok and do own and use them I just always keep in mind the nature of the beast I'm dealing with when I use one. I'm carrying an old 98 Specwar by Emerson today in fact. This is a typical example of a well used well built liner lock not ten years old as of this writing and yet its been to EKI three times in 9 years by three different owners now for lock adjustments. Does it mean it isn't a good knife? No of course not, but I would have to say its lock is not really up to the level of durability it should be in any 'hard use' knife. What this knife has gone through is just typical of the wear you will see on this type lock if you actually use it hard though.

For what its worth, I spend a great deal of time working on folders for end line users everyday. Hardly a day goes by when I'm not in my shop for at least a little while making steps forward on another knife project. I get stuff from Kabar almost religiously by referal work they send me that they cannot or will not do for knife owners and also modified no longer warranted knives from many forum members as well as the opporutnity to test and evaluate current production knives and some prototypes for manufacturers and custom makers from time to time with all different lock types. Some of these I've tested quite hard at the request of the people that made them. I've found that when you really abuse a folding knife you can see it develop wear quite fast. I base my statements about integral locks on one thing really. When I get any knife for lock work 90 plus % of the time its an integral and nothing else. Rarely do I see other lock types for anything and only twice in 20 years have I had to work on a lock back, both times being a simple spring replacement.

STR
 
Not doubting your observations one bit. I wonder if the marketing of integral locks, typical price levels, and type of owner has biased this situation. We've both seen users on this forum demand "rock solid" lockup, "no acceptable blade play," etc. Maybe the concept among lock back users is more accepting of some inherent play. The format tends to limit it, too. It doesn't help that the marketing of high tech materials and concepts is sometimes confused by buyers as arbitrarily meaning high precision, especially in the over $150 range, where integral locks started and still sell.

I think it's a much different crowd from the happy lockback owner who gets a newer knife from the local Mart store every few years. Imagine, getting your knife repaired! much less sharpened. It's like getting a hammer crowned and the nail puller rebeveled. Yes, they actually do that - or did.

Added to all that is the idea a folder can be a do it all survival tool - batoning wood, prying nails out of crates, chopping concrete . . . it's no wonder some loosen up. Very few lockbacks market that kind of toughness, so maybe the integral lock guys bring it on themselves.
 
I have both Axis and framelock folders, and feel that either one is plenty strong for any reasonable purpose you would use a folding knife for, even in an emergency/compromised position. I continue to have and use both.

One think you might consider is how reliable are they to *open*.

I have never had a framelock (or liner lock) folder fail to open. However, I have had two different Axis lock folders fail to open. The cause was the same in all cases - a small object had become lodged in the Axis mechanism, preventing the blade from opening. Several times this has happened with splinters/wood pulp (when camping or doing yardwork) and once the offending object was a ball of jeans lint which had formed in my pocket and ended up in the Axis hole of my Griptillian.

I consider both systems to be reliable blade locking mechanisms, but the frame lock is far more reliable for opening.

Mark
 
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