Axis locks fail too! Validity of spinewhacking?

Lobo103

Lobo103

Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
645
Hola gentleman and ladies! It's been awhile since I posted over here so I will re-introduce myself. I recently seperated from 5 years of active duty as a USAF SP, currently venturing into the world of civilian LE work. Anyway, I like my knives and I expect a lot out of them on the practical end. I've been carrying an Al Mare SERE 2000 blissfully for a year and a half. Recently my much prided S2k started expieriencing lock failure w/ only a fairly mild tap to the blade spine. So I picked up a brand new Benchmade 805 in D2. All the research and opinion that I had gathered indicated that the Axis lock was bulletproof. So I took my new toy and performed the dreaded spine whack test....only to have it fail on the third strike :( So here is my question, will just about any lock fail this test w/ repetition, or is the test even a valid one? I'm seeking solid cover....I think this could be interesting.
 
Dude, don't be wacking you knives like that. That's abuse and it voids the warranties. The axis is garanteed to hold 800lbs of solid pull. Sudden impact is very different. It's like the difference between standing on a scale and jumping on it from ten feet up.
You want a knife whose spine you can wack, get a fixed blade. Or get a cold steel and watch them wack a pine board a lot with their voyager.
-KC
 
Agreed, I spine wacked my CS Recon 1 tanto and it didn't do a thing to it, I think I got one of the "good ones," but after I read some people on here saying that they almost had the blade dislodge from the handle I have not SWed a knife since.

Also how hard were you whacking the blade? You don't want to try and dent the table, the idea os that if you pull the knife up and cack the back of the knife on something or drop it that it won't break. If you try and use it has a hammer You will eventually break it. Sometimes much sooner than later. :(
 
I know that neither of my axis locks fail the spinewhack test, neither do my framelocks. I think that the test is valid. While it's rare that you will be holding 800 lbs with the back of your blade, it's entirely possible you might slip and bang it into something. You might want to email Benchmade to see what they say about it failing.
 
None of my quality folding knives' locks (liner locks mostly, a few frame and back locks) have ever collapsed when I spinewhack-tested them.
And I do it multiple times with serious force, it usually even damages the blade finish on the spine where the blade hit the wood - but the locks don't fail.
 
Don't feel bad. When whacked on the last 1' of blade of my 520 axis lock, it failed every time. I posted that on the BM forum and all of the die hard axis lovers about had a heart attack. I no longer own an axis lock, not because of it failing, but because I just don't any of the designs. Maybe if there was a spearpoint Stryker with an axis lock, I might consider it. Other than that, I don't really even care for the axis lock. I prefer autos and liner locks. :)
 
The test really isn't a realistic one. Even in a knife fight, if you were holding the knife normally (with the edge pointed the way it's supposed to) and a sever wack is delivered to the spine, then the weakest joint will fail first. And THAT joint is where your hand is holding the knife. The blade is less likely to fold than it is to fly out of your hand.
 
The axis lock is a good design. Even good locks can fail if there are manufacturing flaws, if they are dirty and cannot fully engage, if they are new and need to wear in, or if they are totally overstressed. You may be able to tell what is going on by yourself. There will be some ambiguity since you might have overstressed the lock.

First look to see if you can see anything bent or dented from your test. That would be a sign that you overstressed the lock. This may be hard to determine with an axis lock. It might show up as some latteral looseness of the lock button. Assuming that you don't see damage the likeliest problem is that the lock did not engage as deeply as it should. Try opening the blade slowly and see if the lock buttons drop into engagement deeply without coaxing. Did they engage the same amount on both sides. If the engagement seems questionable look for signs of lint or other dirt in the lock. If no dirt you could look for signs that there is some small burr or machining residue that is getting in the way. I like to carefully apply some closing pressure on the blade and look for any signs that the lock buttons want to creep a little bit towards out-of-lock. Try opening the knife sort of hard and forcing the lock buttons into engagement by hand. If the engagement depth improves or the lock creep is reduced you may just have a knife that needs some wearing-in. Do more forced working of the lock.

On the other hand if the blade lock is loose or you have lock creep even with some working-in you may have a knife with manufacturing flaws. If the lock cannot engage properly due to an alignment problem or if it creeps because something is cut at the wrong angle those are manufacturing problems.
 
KC- I understand your point. The fact is though I've seen some fairly odd things come up in the field and on the street and I can see situations where a folding knife might have to be used for really hard use or for Self-Defense. If you accidentally hit a skull or breast plate...or a belt buckle...miss and hit the wall (keeping in mind a highly fluid situation) do you really want a knife that's going to close on your digits?? Fixed blades are the obvious answer. Having served overseas In friendly nation w/ not so friendly elements, there have been times when my only SD tool was a moderate sized folding knife. A fixed blade or even an ASP or other impact device would have seen me locked up in a foreign jail had It been inadvertantly found.
Besides at $100+ for a blade called the "Advanced Folding Combat Knife" I would kind of expect it to not fail a very Moderate spine whacking:( Don't take this as me kicking on BM or anyones opinions. I have an MOD that is even more prone to fail and on the other hand I have an Old (Seven years or better) BM 910 that passes w/ flying colors. For utility I really can't seeing it being much of a problem....I a fight though I'm think there is a lot of advantages to using Pikal style reverse edge methods.
 
Once you inspect it as Jeff Clark mentions, and finding no obvious problems, contact Benchmade. The knife is not supposed to fail the spine whack; I have had one 710 that would fail if I whacked the spine of it against the palm of my hand (hard enough to hurt, but I did it). I contacted them, they replaced the knife. While they won't replace an abused knife, they will replace an axis lock that is failing when tapped on the spine.
 
Jeff- Thanks for the tips. Much appreciated. I can't see anything wrong w/ the knife. I really didn't use enough force to damage the knife. I think the vibrations from the repeated (three) taps just dislodged the bar. I think I was just a bit shocked and disspointed after all of the positive hype. I'm refraining from judgement as yet.
 
That's definately not supposed to happen. After owning my 710 for a while I developed enough confidence in the lock to do some heavier spine whack testing in order to remove any doubt as to it's reliability in emergency situations, so *with a dulled blade and leather gloves* did some full power whacks into a 2X4 on the workbench, it didn't fail, and the lock function and smoothness was in no way compromised. This does constitute abuse, but at least I have faith that the lock wont fail as long as I keep it clean and well maintained. These things are built by people though, and even the axis lock isn't immune to manufacturing or even design flaws in certain models.

Edit: Lightly oil the axis mechanism and wipe it down so that only a thin film of oil remains, while it's closed, wipe ALL oil off the tang engagement surface. Open the knife then close it, and use the thin oil that should now be on the tang to determine where exactly the lock bar is seating. My 710 locks up at about 1/8in (~2-2.5mm) if it's barely engaging the tang it probably just needs to be cycled a few times to let it wear in a little, otherwise I'd send it to benchmade to get fixed.
 
Knifeclerk said:
You want a knife whose spine you can wack, get a fixed blade. Or get a cold steel and watch them wack a pine board a lot with their voyager.
-KC
Click to expand...


If you whack a fixed blade hard enough, you can get the same results.
 
The spine whack test only tests impact on the back of the blade. In heavy real world use, the test your folder will fail more likely is twisting. Stab into wood and turn it and a liner lock may very well fail. The tip mauy fail! Even a framelock will fail for the same reason, even if you think your grip is strong enough to hold it in place.

I don't spine whack. I use knives for cutting, so I know to stress the edge, not the back :) but I have read that a spine whack on a new liner lock may actually help set it.
 
I'd check for blade play. It's quite possible that you drew a bad lot and got a bad knife. I have a 806, pretty much the 805's fraternal twin, and I have whacked it rather hard both intentionally and unintentionally. The Axis lock does do exactly what Benchmade says it will. Your knife should preform to standard.
 
Send the knife back to BM and let them look at it, fix it, or replace it. No modern day folding knife, of quality, should ever fail a basic medium to hard tapping, spine wack test.

On the other hand, please keep in mind that any knife that is designed to "fold in the middle" will never be a strong as a fixed blade.
 
I think I am going to send it to BM. Other than the lock I like the knife, the D2 blade is wicked and it handles really well.
 
I used to think that the spine whack was important, until I realized that several of the knives I carried for years failed the test. One was an Emerson CQC7, I carried on construction sites for years, making cuts in odd positions, rope, cardboard, tarps, wood whatever. I realized that in spite of the spine whack, that knife never gave me a problem. So I quit worrying about it.

In fact I check 5 knives I own and carry;

Sebenza
Strider AR
Ralph/Wilson
BM Tsunami
Emerson CQC-7

All failed except the Sebenza. What does that prove, nothing, I just don't worry about it any more. Remember knife safety, don't cut into yourself and the lock won't fail.


Steve


Steve
 
First of all, .45acp, nice handle. Secondly, the reason why I do place some importance in the spine wack test is that I would like to have to confidence in knowning that I can srick my folder into a table without losing my fingers.
Richard
 
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