Axis locks fail too! Validity of spinewhacking?

speedfan said:
First of all, .45acp, nice handle. Secondly, the reason why I do place some importance in the spine wack test is that I would like to have to confidence in knowning that I can srick my folder into a table without losing my fingers.
Richard


Richard,

If you try hard enough you can fail any device. If you want to stick your knife in a table :confused: , perhaps a fixed blade would be the way to go. A folder will not ever be as strong as a fixed blade. In any case, my point was that the knives listed about are considered some of the best and strongest on the market, and they were not 100% except the sebbie.

BTW just because a knife does or does not fail a spine whack, does or does not mean it will or will not fail under use. The knives I tested have never failed under any use and some severe use, only the spine whack. Just MO, I don't think it really tells you much.

Steve
 
I vote for spine whack :)
Just becuase knife has not failed in past does not mean it will not fail in future, "using hard" but carefully is different then having accident you do not anticipate.
Sure you can make many locks fail if you try hard enough, but I want to know which lock fails without much effort at all, i think spine whack is good for figuring out this kind of failure.
Martin
 
imho its fine to lightly tap the back of the blade on a fairly soft surface (ie the carpeted floor for one, just to keep from scratching it) to check the lock, if lightly tapping it hurts anything its junk to begin with (ie REKAT rolling locks) again lightly ya dont have to go nutz on it, really other than REKATS and CRKTs i have never had one fail on me(knock on wood), also if done this way it leaves no signs of the test (ie scuffs-etc) so no warranty issues come into play, although i cant imagine any reputable company saying lightly tapping one is abuse, in any way.
 
Sad to hear your 806 D2 failing. I had a 520 failing too and thought this was because of a slightly modified axis lock. All my other axis stand straight.

I ruined a Puma lock back folder with my spinewhacks inbetween five smacks.

You should call the warranty departement. Guess, they will be glad to hear about it.

The 520 i recieved for my failed is in best condition.

Expect those knives to withstand a spinwhack.
 
.45acp said:
BTW just because a knife does or does not fail a spine whack, does or does not mean it will or will not fail under use. The knives I tested have never failed under any use and some severe use, only the spine whack. Just MO, I don't think it really tells you much.

Steve

My Puma folder was with me for about eight years with no problem exept that it played in any direction. :D Even though it failed terribly.

I think modern folders are build to withstand this stress for it is a common test.

Under civilian use there is no situation where a spinewhack may show anything. All seriuos thoughts about this test lead to usage as a weapon.

So my conclusion is: It should resist if it is named to be strong.
 
I hope Benchmade can fix the knife for you, it should'nt fail a moderate force spine-whack.

I've tested all of my Benchmades time and time again and none have ever failed the spine-whack test (I have a 550, 551, 722, 555, and 556).

I think the test is 100% valid. If a lock will fold from just a firm tap on the spine, then it's no better than a non-locking slip-joint folder.

The only knives I have witnessed fail were liner-locks: a CRKT Hammond Grey Ghost Mirage and a Spyderco Wegner.

Allen.
 
Knifeclerk said:
The test really isn't a realistic one. Even in a knife fight, if you were holding the knife normally (with the edge pointed the way it's supposed to) and a sever wack is delivered to the spine, then the weakest joint will fail first. And THAT joint is where your hand is holding the knife. The blade is less likely to fold than it is to fly out of your hand.

Nonsense, any person without a severe disability can readily hold onto a knife in that situation. I personally have broken very strong locks, by justing holding the knife in hand and having the spine hit with a stick by my brother.

In no case could he ever knock the knife out of my hand. The locks all failed long before it. Common sense should tell you this because you can hold onto the knife during the spine whack and it doesn't get knocked out of your hand then, the lock goes readily long before the knife breaks free of your grip.

Lots of knives can take impacts to the spine and not fail, others can't. Buy the ones which have the behavior that you need.

-Cliff
 
I would say, it probably shouldn't happen to an axis lock. of course, things happen, as always said, and there were good suggestions to correct it or tech it.

I have not had a lock fail yet, not even my Rolling Locks (I also don't have the barls to whack the crap outta it...just light to moderate whacking). The RL, IMO, is not an inherently flawed lock, but on the last knife they made it was just not...a good situation. But, BM now has a RL knife out, so I think that would validate the design itself as not junk. Just that application of it.

I want to get me an Axis 805 someday. Hopefully I'll get really lucky and score one on a trade. Or for Christmas!!!
 
I believe that if you have an Axis that fails it is a factory defect. Once the lockbar is in place over the tang, no amount of beating should disengage that lock. Your lockbar probably isn't engaging, or ramping up over the tang far enough.
Spine whack validity is common sense. What does a folder lock do? It keeps the blade from closing due to pressure from the direction of the spine-same way you close one when you unlock it. It ain't rocket science.
 
Wunderbar said:
Don't feel bad. When whacked on the last 1' of blade of my 520 axis lock, it failed every time. I posted that on the BM forum and all of the die hard axis lovers about had a heart attack. I no longer own an axis lock, not because of it failing, but because I just don't any of the designs. Maybe if there was a spearpoint Stryker with an axis lock, I might consider it. Other than that, I don't really even care for the axis lock. I prefer autos and liner locks. :)
Have you looked at the Doug Ritter's RSK Mk1™ Folding Knife by Benchmade™

I have one and I love the blade....S30V!!! in a Griptillian!!!
 
Sorry, Cliff,

A real fight doesn't involve standing there, holding your knife tight, prepared for a hit by a stick, and leaving your hand there waiting for the whack. The dynamics of frenzied motion, adrenaline and many other factors make it just as easily possible, actually much moreso, that your knife can be knocked from your hand.

A static test performed like yours in a vacuum in an artificial circumstance has almost no bearing on the realities of a fight. The only thing you established is that you stood there and held the knife on THAT particular day during that particular "test."

Best,

~Brian.
 
When most people grab a knife for the spine test, they are holding it as they normally would, but with the cutting edge facing the opposite side. I am merely saying that this is less realistic because the ammount of force being delivered in full swing surpasses what would occur in normal/tactical use.
I believe that a more practical test for the spinewack would be to hold it the knife as you normally would and then swing up, hitting the underside of a table/board, etc. Even if you can deliver a similar force, you will note that it is much more of a strain to keep a grip on the knife. The dynamics of the two holds are completely different.
I'm not saying that spinewacks are entirely without validity. I do believe it is a good thing to know that a blade will not fold in on you should it be used in extreme circumstances. But hammar-pounding spinewacks generally seem like overkill to me.
-KC
 
Wunderbar said:
Don't feel bad. When whacked on the last 1' of blade of my 520 axis lock, it failed every time.

Other than that, I don't really even care for the axis lock. I prefer autos and liner locks. :)

We were brothers in that, b/c my 520 did fail too. Wasn´t it, that BM replaced it for a good one? Or didn´t you asked them?

Of all the autos i´ve seen, i think autos in general are build less strong than folders in general. But that is definatly OT. :D

I think you should just say that the replacement 520 was alright, if it was.

Mine is.

I own a 550, two 806 a 520 and a 5000A.

The auto is the weakest lock. The 550 will break before failing, and the two 806s too. The 520 is a strong, but okay i am burned.
 
speedfan said:
First of all, .45acp, nice handle. Secondly, the reason why I do place some importance in the spine wack test is that I would like to have to confidence in knowning that I can srick my folder into a table without losing my fingers.
Richard

what did the table do to you? :(
 
Brian Jones said:
A static test performed like yours in a vacuum in an artificial circumstance has almost no bearing on the realities of a fight.

My brother who performed the hitting and held the blade has trained in several martial arts, currently teaches grappling classes has done stickfighting and others, boxing, judo, kung-fu etc. . Some of the hits were static to look at raw strength. I also had him do backcuts into soft and hard targets, and I have done them as hard and fast as possible. Tried lots of other things, in no cases was it possible to knock the knife from the hand so trivially and extreme impulses could be delivered with ease (if this wasn't possible you could not use a knife to cut into a hard target as it would get knocked from your hand, so of course would the object striking the knife as it recieved the exact same force the knife does).

Aside from those types of impacts, I have seen a lot more in use, cutting which was very dynamic, cutting moving or twisting objects which induced severe torques on the blade in high stress situations. Locks that fail the spine whack will go long before a normal persons wrist would. Assuming of course here a decent wrist strength, if you have no level of physical activity, and don't use a knife on a regular basis thus have no idea how to hold onto it, sure but that is kind of really stretching it.

Is it possible, sure, you are caught by surprise, whatever, but it is hardly a given that you can't resist an impact enough so that the impulse on the lock is many times greater than what would be delivered in a normal spine whack (which is usually just the weight of the knife delivering the force). The spine whacks that people use are really light, only a very few people like Steve Harvey do spine whacks which can cause strength related failures.

-Cliff
 
Thanks for expanding and clarifying that, Cliff. Your previous post led me to believe something else.

Best,

Brian.
 
The first few ones I did were just brute force, I was looking mainly at wrist strenght in extremes, could you hold onto a knife if it was hit with extreme impact if you were ready. I found that it was near impossible and I even did some really stupid things like try to resist the motion as much as possible to raise the impulse, of course you go with it a little, same with any punch, you don't stiffen up and maximize the impact. However even when I did this I still could retain a hold on the knife, this assume a decent handle of course. Small partial length handles are hard to hold onto, but then again these should not be called tactical knives.

But again just forget about all of this and think about the mechanics in general. You can easily take something and hit something with it and not have the object get knocked out of your hand. If this wasn't possible people could not use a hammer. Getting something hit is basically the same thing, the only difference is in one case you are fully prepared for the impact (using a hammer) in the other case you may get caught by surprise, like I could knock a pen out of your hand rather easily if you were writing. However if you know I am going to try to do it, it gets *way* harder.

Its not something that is difficult to try out, just use a butter knife and try hard slashed into hard targets and see how much force you can slam back into the tip before it gets difficult to hold onto. Now compare that to normal spine whacks. Just think about the actual possible torques and impacts the knife could recieved if you icepick stabbed someone either, these are all *way* above spine whacks.

-Cliff
 
If you get a mere handful of spinewhack failures of a certain lock format after several years, that's likely just a manufacturing problem, and that particular knife should be returned to be fixed. This is exactly the case with the axis lock. On the other hand, if you get a high percentage of failures of a particular lock format, regardless of who the manufacturer is, then you should start to worry that there are manufacturing challenges with the format of the lock itself, and -- I would claim -- it's reasonable to avoid that format for more rigorous use. This is exactly the situation with the liner lock.

That, of course, is if you believe the spine whack test is valid at all, which some people don't. And that's okay -- they're your fingers, you are all big boys, you can decide for youselves. One thing I would definitely agree with is that the spine whack isn't the only lock test you should perform -- white knuckling tests and torquing tests are at least as important.

That said, here's what the spine whack test does. It dumps a force into the spine of the knife, very quickly. The key here is "quickly" -- in my experience, the more quickly the lock "feels" the force, the more difficult it is to withstand. Again, in my experience, a light-to-medium whippy spine-whack is much harder to pass than even a hard hammer-like blow ... I imagine because one of the reasons for failure seems to be whether the fast intrusion of the force can mess up the lock geometry and get the blade moving before the lock has a chance to re-form itself. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a shocked look on someone's face when they hand me a knife they claim they spine whacked the hell out of (almost always using hammer-like blows), and then I do a light whippy spinewhack and the thing fails. 'course, plenty of knives failure from slower, medium-type blows as well.

How can a spinewhack type force be seen in real life? First, any time you thrust fast and hard with the knife, if the knife doesn't go directly straight in and it hits a hard object on its spine, some component of the force can be directed in the spine-to-edge direction, similar to a spine whack. In real life, that component of the force is likely to not be as fast or as powerful as a spine whack, but that's part of the point -- in my spine whack test, I'm stressing the knife to make sure it'll take a bit more than I might see in real life. In addition, we've seen several cases of people getting their blades wedged or stuck in whatever material they're cutting, and when they yank the knife out, the spine hits another work surface. That is exactly a spine whack. Corner case? Well sure, but not to the guy whose knife closes on his fingers because of it.

For a long time now, I've felt that the main feeling against the spine whack test is because the most popular lock format for higher-end knives -- the liner lock -- performs so miserably in these tests. So now people have a choice: they can stop carrying their favorite knives, or decide they hate the spine whack test. I've actually seen people support the spine whack test, and then turn around and decide they dislike it after their liner locks fail it.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
For a long time now, I've felt that the main feeling against the spine whack test is because the most popular lock format for higher-end knives -- the liner lock -- performs so miserably in these tests. So now people have a choice: they can stop carrying their favorite knives, or decide they hate the spine whack test. I've actually seen people support the spine whack test, and then turn around and decide they dislike it after their liner locks fail it.

The spine-whack can be a pretty severe test - but has revealed some surprising failures.

I use a knife that I know will fail the spine-whack dismally -
but that does not mean I don't think the test is valid.......
since my EDC is a SAK - and being a slip-joint it will fail the spine-whack test.

I would expect all my locking blades to pass the spine-whack test using a pretty hard whack (using softish wood - like fire-wood) to give me confidence in the knife.

But it should also be obvious from above I have some lock-blades that have failed the test (some dismally) - that I have kept for various reasons which may or may not be related to lock safety issues.

BUT I am well aware of those knives' shortcomings and will treat them like I would a slip-joint.

So bascially I agree with Cliff Stamp and Joe Talmadge - that the spine-whack test is valid -
even if it may seem more severe than what would be encountered under normal usage -
but that's the whole point of a test - that the knife will withstand almost anything that one would encounter under almost any usage.

We often hear of some locking blade failing unexpectedly - and although I do sympathise with the user -
I would respectfully suggest that if the person had done a simple spine-whack test - they would then had been aware of the knife's shortcomings - and could have weighed their options beforehand.

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
 
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