Backpack Choice

D

DanielL

Joined
Jan 13, 2000
Messages
168
I've done a lot of camping over the years but I'm just now getting interested in backpacking. I need some advice on choosing a backpack.

What are the pros and cons of internal frames versus external frames? Any brands or models that you would recommend? Any advice on getting a pack that fits me?
 
Internal frame packs are on average more comfortable and easier to carry. Because the load is closer to your body than a frame pack, it is easier to balance.

Internal frame packs are also much hotter to carry for the same reason: they ride closer to the body. This is not a trivial matter. When you hike, you burn a lot of energy and produce a lot of heat.
Internal frame packs also tend to be heavier. My Camptrails frame pack is a pound lighter than Mountainsmith's Mountainlite, an internal frame pack that is as light as it gets for an internal frame pack with a full suspension. There are exceptions. Dana Design has an internal [I MEAN EXTERNAL] frame pack that must weigh 8 lbs. It's HEAVY. I believe the frame is steel and not aluminum. Why, I dunno, 'cause everything else about the pack is awesome. The suspension is awesome, the hipbelt is awesome. Some claim that even though the pack is heavy, the weight "disappears" when you put it on. My opinion is: bullpuppy.

Anyway, if I was buying one pack for summer for kept trails, I'd get an external frame pack, probably a kelty or camptrails or even a jansport. Cheap but serviceable--and light. For $100 you can get a Camp Trails Alaskan that will haul your gear where you want to go--cheaply. For cool or cold weather and x-country skiing or snowshoe, I'd go with an internal frame pack, probably a Dana but ther are others just as good.

Best bet is shop around to several backpacking stores and talk to the store owner or one of the geezers, not the summer temp help. Believe about half of what they tell you. Go to as many stores as possible, then search on line for gear reveiws. There is also a backpacking usenet group and I believe they have an faq you can check out as well.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 05-05-2001).]
 
Daniel,

Internals and externals ride very differently. Your preference is partly determined by personal taste of how you like your pack to ride, and may also be determined by use. Probably a slight majority of people find (top-quality) external frame packs to be more comfortable for easy hiking on gentle trails. When the trails get more challenging, externals no longer compare well. Internal frame packs hug your body much more closely, have their center of gravity closer to your own, and thereby are much better for keeping balance when doing a lot of rock-hopping, scrambling, climbing, skiing, etcetera.

They also, generally speaking, differ in concept as to how you carry your stuff. External frame packs tend to have relatively little capacity, for the reason that it is intended for you to strap lots of stuff all over the outside of the pack. Internal frames tend to have more capacity, for the reason that it is intended for you to store everything (or nearly so) inside your pack. External frames have a less limited carrying potential (you can strap on as much as you want, and strap on very large things). Internal frames, on the other hand, protect your gear better. Because of this, gear tends to be easier to organize, and quicker and easier to access, on external frames. However, well designed internal frames often deal with this problem well. Because external frame packs have frames sticking out, and stuff strapped all over, they are more prone to catching on tree branches and bushes, more prone to scraping against things in narrow passages, and so on. Internal-frame packs typically weigh more than externals.

External frame packs tend to be easier to repair; but internals are less prone to damage in the first place.

Externals tend to cost less for what you get. However, if you are looking for the best designed, most full featured, top-of-the-line stuff, only internals are really made this way, these days.

I've chosen to use internals for the last 14 years, because they are more versatile and suit my needs better.

I can't really get more specific without knowing stuff like: What season is this pack for? How many days are you planning on being out on your typical outing? What sort of terrain? What sort of activities?
 
I have both types, but like the external better. The internal is slightly more comfortable, but lacks all the pockets and lashing points of the external. You should try and borrow different types from friends, or rent from a backpacking store, like REI. By the way, both my packs are from REI, and they have good stuff. Not too pricey, tough, comfortable.
 
My opinion is: bullpuppy.

I'm not an expert, or that much time backpacking, but I've got to play with a Dana pack and it was awesome to say the least. A friend was using it (bummed off an instructor) and I had a little trouble picking it up(he had to much junk) but after it was on it was crazy how light it felt, you could still tell he was hauling around to much stuff, it was easy to move around in. My pack was a super-cheesy external frame pack from a garage sale, probably a boy scout discard, I had the hardest time hauling what little I had. My friend, who has 150 pounds of fat on me strolled into camp in fairly good shape compared to the rest of us. Well, all that to tell you I'm in the believer department about the dana packs, I wish I had one then and now.
 
zpo:

I have two Dana Design internal frame packs (Bridger, Astralplane). They are both excellent packs.
 
Dana Design ArcFlex Terraplane all the way. The only things I dont like is the water bottle holders are a little weird to use but that doesnt matter now because I use a hydration system. The other thing is that when you want to use the top part as a fanny pack you have to remove the hip belt and attach it to the fannypack, not all that big of a deal but I find it a pain. Other than that it is the best pack I have ever had. Tough as hell and carries heavy loads very well.
 
When I post on these forums, I realize I am not an expert on knives. However, I am an expert on backpacks! Well maybe not officially, but I have used, or at least tried EVERY make and model out there with the exception of McHale's, which are custom made & supposed to be unbeatable.
Of the rest, the best is Gregory, IMO. Denali Pro for big loads, Reality for medium. I have owned, and still do own many others, including Dana, Mountainsmith, Granite Gear, TNF, Vortex, Eureka, etc. Most are very good to excellent, depends on what fits you. Vortex would be my number two choice. I realize these are expensive packs, but if possible, skimp in other places(except boots & knives) in order to get the best fitting/carrying/etc, pack you can. You won't regret the expense 50 miles down the trail, I promise! Make sure the retailer/salesperson is knowledgable, and make sure it is a PERFECT fit.
Happy Trails.

JET
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hoodoo:
Some claim that even though the pack is heavy, the weight "disappears" when you put it on. My opinion is: bullpuppy.</font>
Click to expand...

And a poopy pup to you, too
tongue.gif

I've got the Astralplane Overkill (bigger than I'll ever need-the Terraplane OK would have been my choice if I could have found one). Haven't had the chance to use it much, but have had 50-75lbs in it, and it really does "disappear". I actually feel better with the pack on. Unlike most other packs, the Danas have several different sizes (per model-at least on the larger ones) of packbags, hipbelts, and shoulder straps, so you can have a custom fit.
Wish it had a built-in hydration system, though. I've got a CamelBak Pakteen mounted on one side, but would prefer that it was internal.

 
Mea culpa! I noticed that all the negative comments were by people talking about internal frame packs. Then I reread my post and realized I made a booboo. The pack I was referring to was an EXTERNAL frame pack, not an internal frame pack. On average, Dana internals are not any heavier than any other internal frame pack. Note that my choice for an internal frame was a Dana. But the EXTERNAL FRAME Dana TerraFrame weighs 8 lb, 3 oz and their whole Loadmaster series run close to 8 lbs. My Camptrails, in contrast, weighs just over 4 lbs and I've carried that pack all over the Canadian Rockies, Washington, Montana, Idaho, and Northern Michigan. Yes, the Dana pack is more comfortable but so is carrying less weight-a lot less weight. Why they couldn't make the frame out of aluminum or some other light material, I don't know. Over the years I've been continually reducing the amount of gear/weight I carry. The difference has been amazing. It just doesn't make sense to me to use a much heavier pack when lighter packs just as serviceable are available. This "light backpacking" philosophy has been carried to an extreme by Ray Jardine, which he describes in his book Beyond Backpacking. I'm no where near that extreme but during my last trip (4 days) I carried 31 lbs and that included a not so light Busse Natural Outlaw, a Katadyn water filter, Leica 10x42 binoculars, and a bird field guide. If you don't carry 50 lbs on your back, you won't need Dana's killer hip belt. Jardine goes so light, his pack doesn't even have a hip belt.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM


[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 05-05-2001).]
 
Hoodoo,

I agree that ultralight backpacking is the way to go, when this is an option. When I don't need to carry around my nature photography equipment, I usually choose to use the ultralight pack I made for myself. (I built an ultralight, full-featured, 4,000 cubic inch packbag onto the suspension system of an old MountainSmith Bugaboo pack. The total weight of this empty pack is 2 pounds.)

The notion that heavy weight will feel like it has disappeared when you carry a pack with a comfortable suspension system is simply not true, beyond the first few miles. No matter how well distributed or balanced the load is, you are still carrying dozens of extra pounds for 15, 20, 25 or more miles per day, at high altitude, over steep and uneven terrain. Your body must perform the necessary work of moving this extra weight, no matter how well distributed the weight is.

However, lots of people don't have the option to go ultralight: professional nature photographers carrying their camera equipment, geologists carrying rock samples, bombadiers who keep ski resorts avalanche-safe, guides who must coddle their customers, and so on. Also, some people only need to carry their gear in a few miles to a base camp which will be used for a week or more. It can make sense for people in these circumstances to carry heavy packloads full of unnecessary goodies. (And let's not forget men who backpack with their girlfriends, and often must carry the majority of their lady's gear--or the trip ain't happening.)

For those who must, or choose to, carry heavy loads, there's no question that a good pack with a comfortable suspension system is enormously helpful. By putting most of the weight onto the hips and evenly distributing the weight, these packs can make the difference between being tired at the end of a hard day and being severely strained in one or more muscles. Further, a pack that is designed well for moving with you instead of swaying against your movements prevents lots of unnecessary work just controlling your packload.

The people who are in need of lightening up are those who carry heavy packs, not out of a need for the equipment, but out of a fear of being unprepared. Usually, it is greater outdoorsmanship, not more stuff, which will make one better prepared.

Though I think that ultralight backpacking is best, and I appreciate that Ray Jardine has been the prophet of this movement, I have some rather severe critiques to level against him and his books. I don't have time for it at the moment. Later, I'll post these critiques either here or in its own thread.
 
There are some great suggestions posted above, however, I would add my advice and hope it will help.
Try to talk to people (for example here on the Forum) who have tried many models and brands and ask specific questions to finalize your decision. I am by no mean an expert but might help you to narrow down your research.
It is worth to think/go over the following:
- USE: For what (trail hiking, bushwacking, canyonering, winter hiking, mountainering, expedition) and how often would you like to MAINLY use it? How long would you like to MAINLY live from your pack (dayhikes, weekend getaways, weeklongs, crosscontinent)? That is going to narrow it down regarding size (from-to), weight, construction (external vs. internal, waterproofing).
- PRICE: Set up a reasonable price range (from-to) for the desired use determined above.
- TRY-ON: Go to some close-by dealers and PUT it ON with the expected full weight (they gonna help you with that) and mingle around in the store to get a feeling about it and to CHECK its COMFORT for your body shape. That is probably the most important thing IMO. However, I still yet to see a dealer that stocks the many brands and models that are on the market so a compromise is inevitable.
- Think it all over and go for the best one you can afford or happy with.

Few other points:
- Use Backpacker magazine, especially March 2001 Gear Guide issue to see the full scale of options and some recommendations. Use www.gearfinder.com search engine too for a start.
- Some (especially on this Forum) like military and combat style backpacks like Becker Patrol. Try to check earlier posts for those if interested.
- Weight matters and I prefer the simplicity of toploaders (vs. panelloaders) with a top and slim back pocket instead of six large pockets all over that are limited in size.
- Adjustability and versatility are good but too many bells and whistles are not.
- I prefer a slick medium size internal frame that hugs my body over an external frame or any monster pack. It is also easier to move with in denser vegetation or on slippery surface.
- I would stay away from frameless things.
- I am still not a big fan of hydration systems and prefer two side mesh pocket for water bottles.
- I have a Kelty Hurricane 4900 cu. Inch.

Hope it helps,

HM
 
Evolute,
I don't see anything in your post I would disagree with. In fact, I think we are pretty much in agreement. Ray Jardine is into mileage, I'm not. Nowadays, when I go backpacking, I'm more likely to loaf. I will often hike to a spot and spend several or more days, spending much of my time dayhiking. I also often take a lot of photog equipment and field guides. Studying nature is what I do for a living and for recreation and sometimes I need to pack in equipment to do it. I've hauled tree-climbing ladders 15 miles into a research area just so I could count aphid galls. And you should try lugging a laptop and a photosynthesis meter sometime in your pack along with the rest of your gear. So your point about needing a pack that can handle the load is well-taken. Couldn't agree more. However, nowadays whenever possible, I try to reduce weight. If I got one message from Ray Jardine, that was it. I'm not likely to adopt his whole philosophy and methods, but he makes some good points. But I still like my binocs, some field guides etc., others tools if I need them, and now I'm starting to lug around big knives. They are just too much fun! I've also been known to carry shooting irons. Can't carry that kind of stuff in a Jardine pack. But I'm a long way from the 60-65# loads I used to carry routinely (unless I have to for research). I never used to look at pack weights but I do now. I went to a ligher boot, retiring my PMS Easy Hikers and went to a lighter ASOLO. I may get a lighter water filter although my Katadyn has never failed me. I started out with a tarp, tried all kinds of tents and bivys and now I'm back to a tarp--they are light and get the job done. I was actually going to buy a "lightweight" Mountainsmith Mountainlite until I discovered that the pack was actually heavier than my frame pack and couldn't handle nearly as much weight. Why bother? I see Dana has some newer, lighter internals out that look good and I might get one for fall and winter trekking. They look and feel good. But they always feel good in the store. You have to ask that same question after 15 miles of switchbacks. I would love to get a Dana external. The suspension system is killer. But imo, it just weighs too much and they could easily lighten the pack by using a lighter frame. If they could get the wt down to 5#, I'd definitely buy one. But if there is one thing I know from 40 years of hauling packs around on my back, lighter is always better.
smile.gif
The only way the weight disappears when I'm backpacking is when I eat the food.
smile.gif


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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 05-05-2001).]
 
Hoodoo

Lighter is not always better. It's only better when you're walking. When camp is set up, extras can make for a better trip. This does not mean I disagree with you, though. I would always take the lighter pack/tent/stove, etc, if all other factors such as fit, comfort and so on were equal. But they are not usually equal. I've carried Therma-Rest chair kits for years, and at 4lbs+, they don't make sense, compared to a Z Rest. Except once you sit on it. Then it feels worth it. This can be applied to any gear. A roomier tent, cushier pack, extra boots, Outback Oven, the list goes on.
I've always had to balance these out, in order to keep my pack weight down, but once mastered, I no longer worry if I'm carrying 47lbs instead of 41lbs. My pack is more than capable of keeping it comfy, and my tired body appreciates the extras at the end of the day. Five days into a long trail, I look forward to pepperoni and mushroom pizza.
I do ensure that I'm always under personal, self imposed limit of 50lbs by shaving off the unneeded. Sometimes I have to make a choice between tent or tarp in order to carry a hammock and six issues of Tactical Knives, or a .22 instead of a portion of food, but these are the things that make my trips fun. Like so many things, I think personal preference is the deciding factor. I will probably never buy an external frame because I just don't like them. Some forumites may be thinking " Therma Rest chair kit?? What a sissy!"

In my opinion, a backpacker should carry the absolute lightest pack that will keep him/her happy, safe and comfortable.

Jet

 
Thanks for all of the good advice. I’ve been shopping around and learning as much as I can and I think that I’m near a decision. I’ve looked at the Dana’s, the Gregory’s, etc. and they are awesome but so is the price. For my first pack, I’m leaning toward the Kelty 5400. It’s a full-featured internal frame that looks to me to be as good as the others but at 1/3 the price. And, if I end up not liking it, I’ve only invested $150 versus $450. Also, I like the way the straps easily adjust while you are walking to shift the load from your shoulders to your hips (or the other way around.)

For those that were asking how I would be using the pack, I would primarily be in the mountains (Smokies). I hope to begin with one or two night trips but, if all goes as planned, I want to have a pack that will be sufficient for a week or two. Based on the way I plan to use it, do any of you have any comments on a Kelty pack? How is their reputation for quality, fit, etc?

Thanks again for all the help. See ya on the trail.
 
This has been a great thread, even appart from Daniel's initial question. I haven't bought a new large pack in almost 30 years and I'm amazed at how much has changed. Also amazed at the price of course. 28 years ago my then state-of-the-art expedition sized external frame pack (internal frames were unknown at the time) was $75!

My most recent pack purchase was the Blackhawk "Three day assault pack" and I love it. I have to admit though that I'm intrigued by the Becker patrol, and I'd love to be able to compare the two, but for now, I don't go out nearly enough to justify getting yet another pack, especially one that looks (please correct me someone if I am wrong) alot like my medium ALICE pack.

My own issue with pack weight differ from all of yours. 20 years go I was doing 5-7 day trips with that big pack and at the start of a trip it typically weighed in at around 40-45 pounds. Now, however, I'm 50+ years old and my knees aren't what they used to be. Bottom line is that I can't carry a 40 lb. pack all day any more, so I've had to change my camping style a lot.

First, I haven't done a week long trip in over 10 years. Lately, my outings have been more limited to three-day, two-night excursions. I'm also more careful about the vertical distance I can handle in a single day's outing, and this is true not only of my ingress when I'm usually going up hill, but also of my egress when I'm coming down. The latter can be more punishing on my knees than the former. Like others here, I've adopted lighter stove kits and made other changes that permit me to use that frameless (but very comfortable) Blackhawk pack carrying no more than 25lbs. I'd love to try a longer trip with that weight, but food is the primary issue so I'd have to go with someone who knew how to eat the local flora...

 
Daniel,

Give me a call before you buy and you can borrow one of my packs to try.



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TANSTAAFL
 
DanielL
Take a serious look at the Duraflex Journey. under 4lbs., 3500 cu.in. sleeping bag compartment. plenty of last points. Also, The Rokk FlatIron if you like lots of external pockets to organize gear in.
If you feel you need an external frame, check out Coleman's line that used to be Peak 1.There is a Coleman outlet store in Pidgeon Forge.
I,m not a Ray jardine hiker either. Something about running through the mts with shower shoes, a jock strap, carring a potatoe sack , and a hand full of gruel that turns me off!
My three day pack weight with food and water is about 30 lbs...
Enjoy,.,.,
Ravenn in Ky who hikes the Big South Fork quite a bit, ( and is known as "South Fork" on the Backpacking lightweight list)
 
I'd be really interested to hear Evolute's comments on Ray Jardine, when he has a chance to post them.

Thanks in advance,

DPD.
 
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