Backpacking Folder Backup to Fixed Blade

SALTY

SALTY

Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2000
Messages
5,792
Just curious as to what you guys are thinking. Here's the scenario: BACKPACKING, 10 days, at altitude; weight is a factor.

Normally, when afield either camping or otherwise
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I have a fixed blade on my pack/straps/gear, a Leatherman Supertool on me or my gear, a SAK Rucksack in my pocket and a folder. The folder will vary depending on the mission and intended uses, but the Seb, the SERE2K, the Wegner or the old Endura all claw and fuss with eachother to see who gets to go out and play.

Well, just found out I'll be doing 10 days, 6-7000 feet MSL and hot/dry. Going external frame here and want to keep weight down. Normally I just bring everything I think I'll need and just deal with the weight.

So,
Fixed: Shadow IV or Busse (BA or NO)
SAK : Rucksack (no weight, great knife)
Supertool: Supertool
Folder: Any of the above; The new Military I just got (lightweight) or; just forget about the folder (even lighter
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).

The folder usually just gets used for food as I may find myself wanting for clothes, food, ammo or directions, but I'm usually good and bladed-up.

Just thought I'd throw this out for flame fodder.

I also posted this in General Discussion, but them thought it belonged over here. It's not the first time I got lost.
 
Time to put a plug in for my favorite folder: BM 721. I just think this is the ideal folder for outdoors people. It's light but tough. It has the best lock in the business--the axis lock. Flat ground blade for strength and durability. Good sharp point, some belly in the blade for flexibility, and plenty of straight edge for hard cutting. A very utilitarian design as well as a good hunting blade. Also, the blade is comfortable to use in both the edge-down and edge up position.

Here's a pic of the 720 and 721, either of which will get the job done.
bm720721b.jpg

I prefer the 721 (top) because with the G10 scales, it's a tad lighter but the 720, with the aluminum scales, might be a tad more robust, although I have dropped my 721 a couple times on hard surfaces (I know--fumble fingers) with no discernible damage. Also, one thing I can say about my particular 721--the thing holds an edge like I can't believe (it's 154CM)!

IMO, the latest rival to this knife is the new sebenza coming out in flat grind. I prefer the axis lock over the frame lock but the frame lock is a more simple design and less likely to fail in the short term (unless somehow you can reverse torque the grip), although with wear, the lock will walk over the the far side and the blade can loosen. However, most wear is in the stop pin, and the Sebenza stop pin can be rotated to compensate for wear.

With the axis, as the stop pin wears, the lock compensates. But with the axis, a spring could break. However,there are two springs, either of which will get the job done, so there is considerable redundancy built in. Also, if both springs fail, you could still wedge a stout twig behing the axis lock pin and I'm sure the knife would still be serviceable.


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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 05-13-2001).]
 
I was lucky enough to acquire a Camillus EDC in 154cm, which has replaced my other lockbacks and linerlocks as my EDC. Its framelock is super sturdy and its blade hair popping sharp. Its relatively lightweight for a steel handle, due to the cutouts, and I sometimes forget I even have it with me.

So, my choices for any such excursion would probably be (for the moment at least) my EDC154cm, SAK Soldier, and either my Grohmann #3 or my Becker Campanion.

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It's not the pace of life that concerns me, It's the sudden stop at the end.
 
Hey John...

When I head to the woods,, I usually take 3 blades

My RUK, Busse (depending which one I want to hump around) and my Fallkniven FI..

Those three get the jobs done I need...

Alot of times I will also take my Gerber Sport saw as well...

ttyle

Eric...

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing
 
Eric, two fixed blades? I find a fixed blade (or any belt knife, for that matter) uncomfortable with most pack belts and therefore attach the "belt" item(s) to my gear and just carry a folder or two in my pocket.

The four items I usally carry are understandably redundant in their significant overlaps, but I like to carry what I like to and if halfway down the trail I change my mind ... well I still carry it!

This trip however, is different and things will stay home. A fixed blade is going with me for sure and a multitool gets used more than anything. So I guess the folder stays home and the medium-large fixed will share food duties with the Rucksack. The Rucksack is light, but so is the Endura. Arrrrgh, here we go again.
 
Personally, I would take the 'three' you are sure on and forget the folder 'backup.'

The fixed blade, Rucksack and Supertool are more than you'll really need. I would even dare to say you could 'make do' with two, the fixed blade and one of the others. Chances are you might even be able to leave the fixed blade at home with the Rucksack and Supertool in your pocket.

Just think about what you normally use the tools for during your outings and are three or four even necessary. Since weight IS a factor for you, dump some of the redundancies.

Just my $.02 worth, if it's even worth that much!
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Plainsman
primitiveguy@hotmail.com
<A HREF="http://www.plainsmanscabin.com" TARGET=_blank>
Plainsman's Cabin</A>
 
For a 10 day trip, I agree with Plainsman. I would take the Supertool and maybe the Rucksack. Personally I need a toothpick so I would take a supertool and an SAK classic or similar small SAK (that also has scissors). Ten days of food is a fair amount of food to lug around.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
Okay, I'll start something here: "Why would you bother to bring a relatively heavy fixed blade with you?"

From my line of thinking, a multi-tool would provide you with everything you need for a backpacking trip. I'm making the assumption that you will be using stoves and fuel, will be travelling with a group and will have a definate "home by" date. (ie so that if you get hurt, you can lie there and "wait for rescue" to come find you)

Or alternatively, ask how often a fixed blade would actually be required? I know that I can get by with a folder.

This isn't a flame, just a wooden spoon to stir the pot....

Diligence
 
I go backpacking in the Sierra here in California. The altitude is usually between 6k to over 14k ft. I love knives and I collect knives, but I can't find any use for a large fixed blade when I backpack. I usually carry a SAK in my pack and an Endura in my pants. You have a gas stove so you don't need to chop wood. You have a tent for shelter. What do people use large knives for? I think weight is a real factor, and for 10 days, space in your pack is a factor too.
 
I tend to take:

1 - An optional big-job fixed blade (e.g., machete, axe). Lately, when I take this sort of knife, I take a 12" machete.
2 - A multitool of some sort. I'd like it to have a saw, bottle opener, screwdrivers. Scissors are a nice touch, more convenient to use for some types of cutting. I tend to go with a multitool over an SAK, because even though I've never used pliers in the backcountry, there is gear for which theoretically pliers would come in handy for fixing. I go with a Wave.
3 - Lastly and most importantly, my do-everything knife. I've moved towards a high-performance fixed-blade, like an A.G. Russell Deerhunter or Rinaldi TTKK. These are small, lightweight, have high-performance grinds. The TTKK works exceedingly well for food prep, most of the cutting I end up doing in the backcountry anyway. If you find it uncomfortable to wear a fixed blade in the backcountry, you must by a Deerhunter. Lightweight knife, lightweight zytel sheath with an absolutely awesome clip system (same type of system can be had with the TTKK).

I still bring a folder by sheer force of habit. It really ends up being a don't-care for me, since it doesn't get used much. I've brought an AFCK and Endura in the past, and my new fave BM 710. Really though, I'm not even sure what I'd like the folder to do, since it's outperformed by my other knives in their respective jobs. It's more comforting than anything else. Although when I use the folder it tends to be for small jobs, in theory I guess I could end up in a situation where it's my only knife, so a more robust folder might be warranted.

Joe
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Diligence:
Okay, I'll start something here: "Why would you bother to bring a relatively heavy fixed blade with you?"
Diligence</font>
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Because a 10 day, nice and easy back packing trip can turn into a whole lot more. If your pack was lost a big knife will privide you with fire and shelter.
I also use the big knife (ususally a Livesay or Busse) for wood working, trail clearing and about a million other tasks. A Busse #9 is the lightest insurance policy.
I find myself using my SAK far more than any other knife, both at home and in the woods.
As far as a folder goes, I like the Spyderco Miltary. Lightweight, yet capable of any reasonable task.
Take care,
Chad


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Wicked Knife Co.
Hoods Woods
chad234@email.com
 
I'd go for only 2 knives and a diamond-coated pocket sharpener. I've got a pen-style medium-fine pocket sharpener that I carry if I'm going light. Then I'd take a Becker Campanion (if I expected to chop anything and still wanted compact size) or more likely my Fallkniven F1. For a folder I would bring my Victorinox Locksmith with locking main blade, saw, file, awl, screw drivers and can openers.
 
I go camping lots and use plenty of knives.
When I go out into the woods, I tend to stay smaller, and leave the hacking jobs to my axe.
What I would carry for your trip:
4-5inch fixed blade
3-4inch lockblade, heavy use
2-3inch lockblade, light use (ie food)
multi-tool.

I have a:
-Ruko 4" Skinner(much like the Moran FB from Spyerco)
-RiverTrail 3.75" lockblade, brass handle, heavy blade. Almost like a fixedblade in a lock style.
-Delica
-SuperTool

This takes up one side of my belt, and all within easy reach.
 
Unless you have a medical condition such as arthritis or bad knees or whatever, take what you want! I think obsessing about weight is overblown.

I have been caught in the woods more than once without things that I needed. Never again. I tend to stop and rest more than most people, big deal. It gives me more time to take pictures and enjoy the scenery.

Now I take whatever I want, and work out at home so that I'm able to carry it. Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary...
 
Ah, but I've been at altidude with far too many folks carrying entirely far too much gear before. Less is more at altitude. There is no way around it. (The greater the altitude difference between home and campsite, the more that is true.)
 
My son and I went over this last evening. We don't have the luxury of an axe so some chopping is likely, but I have a small saw blade on the Rucksak and on the Supertool.

We will not be carrying 10 days worth of food as fixed camps should be available every other day or so.

Busses are good friends in the boonies, (sounds like an ad agency slogan?) and I'm leaning towards the Natural Outlaw as a compromise between the Badger Attack and the Steel Heart.

My son will have my Buck Pathfinder which is light weight and a great food prep knife.

With tent and all gear, I'm looking to keep this at 50#. Even with a filter/pump and tablets, I'm still looking to carry no less than 2 quarts of water.
 
In many ways, I think it depends on what you want to do when you go backpacking. If you are traveling far and doing a lot of up and down, then going light will make for a much more enjoyable trip. But if you are talking overnight or weekend trips and moderate hiking, why not have a little fun and take some toys along? Also, for canoe trips, I'm much more likely to take something along that will chop (and saw for that matter). For most of the trip, the canoe carries the weight.
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Big knives and hatchets are fun to play with if you want to practice your survival skills in the backcountry. But if distance and elevation are your goals, I would leave the heavy stuff at home. I can't begin to tell you how many sick and exhausted people I've run into in the backcountry than looked totally spent and whose feet were covered with huge blisters. It happens all too frequently especially to people who haven't spent much time backpacking. The salesman sold them every little doodad under the sun to take hiking and when they got out there, they suddenly found themselves sweating like pigs and unprepared for the rigors of carrying 40+ lbs on their backs.

So it all depends on what your plans are and how fit and experienced you are. As I get older, I find the heavier packs harder to carry. It used to be that I never planned a trip under 1 week and more usually 2 weeks. But now I'm more likely to look for shorter hikes. Though shouldering heavy packs turns me off, my biggest problem isn't so much that heavy pack but where my arthritic shoulder and back meets the hard ground.
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Overall, I'd say, know your limits and stay within them. Otherwise you may find yourself in a real survival situation because fatigue made you do something stupid.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Erik W:
Ah, but I've been at altidude with far too many folks carrying entirely far too much gear before. Less is more at altitude. There is no way around it. (The greater the altitude difference between home and campsite, the more that is true.)</font>
Click to expand...

As usual, the greater the generality, the less true it becomes. Would "the most" then be backpacking with nothing - no pack? Going nude?

I have to agree with Hoodoo, it really depends upon your situation. My wife has very bad arthritis in her back, shoulders and neck thanks to a bad car accident several years ago. She can manage a small butt pack, and that's it. So we either don't go hiking, or I carry most everything.

Since I started carrying everything, I also started conditioning to prepare for it. I'm 39 years old, 5 ft. 10 in. tall, and about 170 lbs. My pack is usually between 30 and 65 lbs depending upon what our objective is. Contrary to what the kids at REI tell you, you don't have to have titanium everything and drill holes out to save weight.

What I found out, is that carrying extra weight isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be. Yes, carrying unnecessary doo-dads is dumb, but it's also dumb to be unprepared. I hike to enjoy the woods, not conquer them or be the first up the hill.

We've never had to turn back prematurely due to exhaustion (read - stay within your limits), but we have had to turn back due to injuries in our group, and weather conditions for which we were unprepared. You can look pretty stupid at high altitudes when a sudden squall or snowstorm hits and you don't have adequate clothing and food. I have seen idiots at 14,000 ft. in running shoes, tank tops, and nylon shorts shivering behind some rocks with only a small buttpack and 1 liter of water. Less is more?

Obviously, there is a happy medium. What I have found, and you could too, is that many limitations are self imposed by your brain, not your body.

You won't find me by the side of the trail whining about blisters. You might find me by the side of the trail with a tarp set up, broiling up a steak and drinking a beer.
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I have over prepared many times and carried far more than I needed to. But rarely ever was knife weight the problem.

If I am planning to build a fire, I now leave the stove at home and cook on the fire. It is more fun anyways. Of course, depending on what your food choice is, you may need to stove or at least a grill.

I have also taken too many pots. I rarely use more than one at a time, so one cookin pot is usually enough for me.

I have also switched to a bedroll for summer camping (i.e., 2 mexican blankets) instead of a sleeping bag. Lighter and more comfortable. Sure, a down bag is light and small, but usually hot in the summer (plus i don't have one
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)

These are just some ways I try to cut down. YMMV, of course...

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Clay Fleischer
clay_fleischer@yahoo.com
AKTI Member A000847
 
"As usual, the greater the generality, the less true it becomes."

Fair enough. Given that the basics are covered, less is more while backpacking at altitude. As before, the greater the altitude difference between home and campsite, the more that is true.

Nimrod, what is the difference in altitude, by the way?

 
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