Bad news from BBC about us

"But I also believe Canada has died along with the US in nearly every major conflict we've had in the world requiring armed intervention. I think if things got bad again, Canada and the US have too much in common to throw it away.
============originally posted by Munk


Absolutely agree with that part of your post, Munk. Brothers disagree sometimes, but are still family.

t.
 
Good thread.

I agree with Munk. George I wasn't as strong as George II. He didn't lead with as much passion. He didn't accomplish as much. He has almost no legacy whereas his son has a pretty strong legacy. That being the war (2 new democracies), supreme court, lower taxes, etc. I just wish he was stronger on 2 issues: property rights, and border control.
 
Absolutely agree with that part of your post, Munk. Brothers disagree sometimes, but are still family.
>>>>>>>>>

TF

Let's face it; Canada may mock the US and resent us today, but as I've said before, if the sh-t hit the fan, we'd be in the same foxhole once more. Canada has shed it's blood alongside the sons and daughters of the US many many times.

As for George Bush Sr- he was intially against lower capital gains taxes, he resigned his NRA membership, he poorly understood economics, and faced with Congressional spending gone amok, he broke his no new taxes pledge. But he was a hero and a good man.

Little George is no beacon of libertarianism, but he has taken some tentative steps about the Border with Mexico, lowered taxes during a time of political and economic pressure to raise them, and he he recognized this is WWlll and the preeminant threat to mankind is in Terror.

munk
 
This is a topic I prefer to avoid for the most part, since people can get pretty heated up about it. Today, for some reason, I feel like tossing in my opinion anyway.

I support the US troops and wish them well. I support the ideals behind their deployment. But I do have some doubts about the motivations and judgement of the people who made the decision to deploy them.
 
None of this is meant as a troll, this is my opinion and while I may disagree with others opinions nothing I say here is peronal or meant to be offensive. I am a canadian and I agree with Munk totaly. Canada has participated in every just war that America has been involved in. I was pround of my government when they refused to participate in the illeagle and misguided war in Iraq. However I beleive that now you are in there you've got to finish the job.

I never really understand what the media/politicians mean when they say "War on Terror", terrorism isnt a place people or nation it is a method, you cant bomb a concept. Does the "War on Terror" mean a war on anyone who practices asyemtrical warefare? Or does it mean a war on fundementalist Islam?

What disapoints me about the media and political comentary since September 11 2001 is that it contained no comentary on the motives of the terrorists. The most common thing I hear from the white house about al-Qaeda's motives is that "They hate our freedoms". Never on Fox news or CNN have I heard the real motives of these people (and they are not that hard to figure out). Its true al-Qaeda does hate the west, they see it as the enemy and nemesis of Islam. But, that hatred was not the imiddate motive behind the september 11 attacks. al-qaeda wants fundementalist governements (like the taliban) in power throughout the arab world. Now most arab nations are much more moderate and the general population does not sympathise with these extremists. In order to take power these extremists need popular support, in order to get popular support they need to make it seem that the west is out to get all muslims. In order to do that they need the US (the only super power, and a symbol of "western decadence") to at least bomb but preferably invade some muslim countries killing as many civilians as possible (preferably in moderate or secular arab countries). So September 11, calculated to be so terrible and brutal that it would beg for retribution. Then the invasion of Afgahnistan, totaly justified and nessisary, the taliban were harboring and aiding al-qaeda. This was not what al-qaeda wanted, this was a governement that already supported them. Then Iraq, invaded based on deliberatly falsified American and British intelegence, killing tens of thousands Iraqi civilians, causing many iraqis to take up arms againsed the invaders. Bingo exactly what al-Qaeda is after a secular government that they are openly oppposed to is overthrown creating thousands of otherwise normal people now willing to fight and kill american in Iraq.

And suddenly these weapons of mass destruction are gone, I have yet to hear a convincing argument about this other than that evidence was falsified to justify invading iraq. What really scares me is that (acording to a poll) on the eve of the invasion of Iraq over half of the american survayed beleived that Saddam Hussain sent the terrorists who attacked the US on september 11. Bin Ladin was openly hostile towards Saddams regieme in Iraq due to its defiance of Islamic law againsed the serpation of church and state. The only WMD that Saddam had could have been easily manufactured by any halfway competant terrorist cell. Personaly I thikn the best way to prove that Saddam had in the past had weapons of mass destruction would have been to show everone the reciepts from the country that armed and supported him in his war againsed Iran.

I realize that I have been writing for too long so I will leave it hear. I do not mean anything offensivly, debate is healthy and educational, it helps us understand the views of others.
Gord
 
"Nobody loves a giant" W. Chamberlain.

The Bristish Empire knows all about this. They were the polity everyone loved to hate. We now have that role.


The BBC

I watch the BBC World Service News. While clearly anti-current U.S. administration, BBC is MORE likely to drop crumbs of good news from Iraq than CBS, NBS, ABS, CNNBS, or MSNBS. They actually report terrorist casualities - unlike CBS at all BS.

I can't stand to watch Fox because I do not feel they are trying to tell the truth either.

All special pleaders. No professionalism. All trying to prove they can turn the political wheels in the US. Did it to LBJ and have been trying to flex their muscle ever since.

The soldiers come back and say they do not recognize the war portrayed on the "mainstram media."


Iraq and terrorism

One can only say Iraq did not support terrorists if one does not classsify Hamas, Islamic Jahad, et al. as terorists. Saddam was openly paying bonuses of $25,000 USD to every family of a suicide bomber. Checks were delivered on live national Iraqi TV. I doubt that Israel has any doubts.

Did War in Iraq inspire terrorists to attack the West? No, they were already doing it for years.

Did the War in Iraq inspire terrorists to attack the West in Iraq? Absolutely. Tough on the Iraqis to be sure. Much nicer when all the dead were of other nationalisites (or Kurds) in other cities.

The biggest inspiration for terorism in the world is what has gone on in Palestine. It is vanity to put Iraq in the same league.


Intelligence Failure

As pointed out, every major intel service in the world thought Saddam had WMD - including Russian Federation, France, Germany, Japan, and Israel, and that Saddam was working to get more/bigger/better. Why? Silly Saddam, master of the error in judgment, thought that if he could fool the West into thinking he had them, we'd back down on enforcing the terms of the treaty that ended the Gulf War. So he did his best, even in the hours before he was attacked, to create that impression that he had them, including "deployment orders" for gas munitions. Only after the attack did he bleat, "What WMD?" The world was wrong.

Why does human error have to be a conspiracy? 'Cause you don't like the guy/party/government being attacked for the error. So, e.g., FDR deliberately "let" Japan attack Pearl Harbor and the Democrats "lost" China (like it was ours to lose) because they "liked" the Reds. Screwups explain more than plots IMO. Those who say the evidence was faked do so out of a need to further dislike/hate/denegrate an administration they already dislike/hate/denegrate.

War on terror

You cannot kill an idea. But you can eliminate governments that officially support that idea, which makes it tougher on those who practice the idea. Two down.

Then there is the reaction of Lybia to Cowboy George. Take our nuclear bombs - please. They now repose in Tennessee, U.S.A., not in the hands of Lybia. That was one reaction to our knocking off Saddam that gets easily ignored. MQ didn't want to follow SH.

The best way to stop terrorists is to give better choices to the recruits they want to sign up to blow themselves -- and others - up.

Ending dictatorships and other authoritarian regimes MAY be an answer.

We have had three elections in Iraq that the UN says were OK. That's the first three in the entire history of the area.

Is democracy really the answer? Who knows. Look what just happened in Palestine. Democratic governments led us to WW I. Hitler was voted into power.

The "end game" was always my worry.

Come back in fifty years. We'll know.
 
'the end game was always my worry.'

Mine too. Life has changed. Terror changed the stakes. There may be no 'end game'; I think of a lot of Life is survived- we pass the problems to the next generation and hope they can do better.

"What really scares me is that (acording to a poll) on the eve of the invasion of Iraq over half of the american survayed beleived that Saddam Hussain sent the terrorists who attacked the US on september 11." Grob

I never believed that poll, but if it is true, it is no different than Canadians and the Germans believing 'Bush Lied", or a number three best seller in
France was dedicated to the 'fact' that the CIA blew up the Twin Towers. We live in a world where Britany Spears is called 'music' and the Big Mac food. This entire thread is on the reaction to a BBC poll about how many industrialized nations think the US is a threat to the world.

Insanity is international- so is misinformation. I'm glad Saddam is gone and I think under the circumstances- a crippling nuclear or biological incident would change the economies of all nations, I contend it was a reasonable and even gutsy move.

munk
 
Umm. This is really just the tallying of an opinion poll about what people in various countries think about the US's place in the world. Click around on it -- there's some other interesting stuff about what people think about whether people think their country is more cultured, what people think about American food and drinks, and who's more dangerous, America or China, France, North Korea, etc.

Most of it wasn't surprising. Of course Jordanians aren't going to like American music. Interestingly, people tended to be pretty positive towards American movies but generally didn't like American web sites.

There was a "How do you feel overall about America" question. People tended to like America. The question about Bush, though, not so much.

I was kind of puzzled that Indonesians seemed slightly positive towards American-made clothes and Koreans were pretty negative. I'm wondering where they get American made clothes. I don't think there's hardly any in America.

A very interesting one was that despite a lot of negative opinion about America being scary and the Iraq invasion being wrong, a lot of people seem to think that Iraqis will be better off with Saddam gone.

Remember, these are just opinion polls. They tell us something about the impression America gives, something about how other countries feel about us, a bit about them, and a bit also about how they feel about themselves. There's probably a fair amount of stuff to be read between the lines, but I'm not a sociologist.

I do kinda wonder how they chose the countries. OK, BBC is definitely going to pick Australia and Canada. Perhaps it has something to do with who listens to them.
 
Interestingly, people tended to be pretty positive towards American movies but generally didn't like American web sites. >>>>>>>>>>>

I don't like American Movies- I saw all four of them once and they've repeated them ad infinitum.


munk
 
aproy1101 said:
Tom. You are among friends here whether you agree or disagree.

Yup. Methinks that all of us here know that all Brits and Canadians aren't the same just like all Americans aren't heavy on the smarts either.
The Brits and Canadians have a long honorable history and their share of hero's.
In many things I'd like to see a complete regression back to the times of honor and accountability.
 
YVSA said:
I'd like to see a complete regression back to the times of honor and accountability.

When were those? :rolleyes:

I do seem to recall that we were once much more innocent; but, I suspect that there were still plenty of scoundrels running around doing covertly what todays they do more openly.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
When were those? :rolleyes:

I do seem to recall that we were once much more innocent; but, I suspect that there were still plenty of scoundrels running around doing covertly what todays they do more openly.

n2s

Yea, you may be right N2S but at least back in the day most men were role models, not so much like it is today and especially among the sport's figures although I haven't seen any scandals associated with them lately, but then I haven't been looking either.:grumpy:
And you're spot on about the innocence folks used to have.
 
ACStudios said:
Gee... I wish I saw money and sex...

Alan

Come to Atlanta. "Money and Sex" are tied together here in many places. Especially on "Sweet Auburn Avenue" on a Saturday night!

Bring cash;)
 
Just for the record, I fully support my President and the war and I have since Day one.
I take full responsibility for the actions of the Government and Armed forces of the United States.
They acted on behalf of the will of the people of the United States and no other.
 
say... anyone ever study Britain's history?

no, they never did anything even remotely to what is being implied in that survey.

BOO YAH!
 
hahn.jpg


Been wondering where you were at, Dave. (And so was the rabbit.) How are things? Better?
 
hey dave,

oh man, got a new job. kinda just winding down after 2 years of hell from being overworked.

i also missed the superbowl. don't know how that happened

anyways, i'm in my preverbial cave right now. won't be comin' out till i get get my life in order
 
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