bad posts and apologies are over done

I believe in apologies.....I'll take all I can get
smile.gif

But, I really have to say that the hearty backslapping "it takes a big person" thing is a bit "off".
An apology doesn't remove the offence....it just makes it less "bad". Most people don't apologize because what they said was wrong..but because it was unacceptable to the herd and made them unpopular. "Sorry" gets them back in. No problems with that but I don't see the call for the congratulatory responses.
"Ok, but don't do it again" is, IMO, more appropriate.

The real "big men" are the ones who say "up yours" and move into caves
smile.gif


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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
Lets just start another forum....The Piss N Moan Forum.

------------------
"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
TomW-I think the point you`re missing is what the apology was for. I don`t believe for a minute that the poster has changed his mind about alleged copycat knife makers. I don`t think he was saying "I`m sorry I thought you were ripping off my friend. I don`t think that anymore". I think he was apologizing for the way he said it. It came off as a personal attack on someone that was only semi-named! The place for this sort of thing is private email. If you want to debate the morality of copycat knifemakers, there have been several threads about that here; none of them ever locked, as I recall.

It isn`t what`s being said as much as how you say it. There is nothing cowardly or unmanly about apologizing for saying something in a tone that was more abbrasive than necessary.



[This message has been edited by Steve B. (edited 05 December 1999).]
 
L6

tell us about your suggested new forum.....or were you just having a piss and a moan ?

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
All right, I guess it's time to say something here since I'm starting to feel more than a little self-conscious. I posted a response to Cougars apology and to Hammerhead knives apology. In Cougar's case, I did not feel he did anything wrong at all. He just said what he felt and forgot where he was posting. His comments were considered beyond the bounds of the rules of this forum by the moderators. Not by me. I have seen enough to think that the evidence supported the words he used. Someone else crossed the lines of rational discussion and That was what resulted in the thread closure. Not Cougar's comments. I wrote my post in his apology thread because the guy seemed a little embarrassed by the response of the moderators and he agreed that what was said went beyond the rules of this forum. Because the thread was closed, he couldn't edit his inappropriate language. He did Not ever retract the substance of his original post. He said he would have edited out the personal comments because they are against the rules of this forum. Not that he was taking back the meaning of what he said.

Expressing support to someone involved in a controversy is not wrong in my book. The object of his 'attack', if you can call it that, really does need to post an apology to all of us here, but not to Cougar. But ONLY for his use of objectionable language. And to Please refrain from illogical profane sputtering and spewing of inane ad hominem attacks. I probably won't post any sort of statement of support or acceptance of that apology (it will never happen anyway) because I have already made up my mind about that guy. Any poster has every right to fight back and try to counter someone else's personal statements about him. But it should be done in a rational, civil, and factual basis. Then all of we readers can decide based on those posts, and the history of that person's posts, who is right and who is wrong.

On the other matter of controversy today, which was used as an example in this thread, I probably was too hasty to post acceptance of his apology and acknowledge that that took some courage. But he did not seem to be retracting his statements, only acknowledging the overwhelmingly negative replies to his post, which was laden with anger. I agree that one should not post anything in anger or haste. But if that happens, is it wrong to say one is sorry? If the thread had not been locked, I doubt he would have felt the Need to apologize. In a separate thread. Maybe he would have restated his argument in the original thread. But at least one of the moderators felt that his thread was out of hand and closed it down. I agree that it did not need to be closed. There was strong disagreement with what he said about another maker and maybe the way he said it, but the discussion could have continued. After reading all the negative replies and seeing that it had been closed, an apology was posted because he realized that he had posted in anger. I think we all agree that nobody should express their anger with others too strongly in this public forum.

As for my offering my acceptance of his apology, perhaps that was too hasty. The moderators simple "you're forgiven" and please don't shout comment was all that was really needed. I didn't even care about the topic that caused all the trouble. But when someone is ready to say "hey, I shouldn't have said it that way, and I'm sorry", I will usually offer them my support. An apology does Not have to reflect the position of "oh, I guess what I said was wrong, and now that I see everyone else disagrees, I admit I was wrong, and want everyone's forgiveness." An apology should be offered only when one has crossed accepted bounds of decency and rational discourse.

I respect the ability to admit when one has crossed the lines of civilized behavior. And I don't think that is wrong at all. To the contrary, sticking to asinine statements and profane language and insisting that it was appropriate Is cowardly. It says that the person can not take a hard look at their behavior and try to learn and grow from experience. There is absolutely no apology necessary for a difference of opinion, no matter how many disagree with that opinion. Apologies are for when you have failed to express that difference of opinion well, and resorted to colorful language and personal attacks for want of more appropriate language. There is a fine line here because some 'personal attacks' contain statements that can be generally supported by evidence. But use of words like 'idiot', and a**h*** are not acceptable here. Even when they seem to be the most appropriate descriptive word available. Learn to express what you feel some other way.

I do think Richard is right. There has been entirely too much apologizing in this forum. It is boring, and is not what this forum was created for. But if someone does apologize for a mistake, nobody is forcing you to read it. And nobody is asking you to post to accept the apology. I guess some of you are real tough guys, and don't give a **** (you pick your own expletive) about anybody. You are just going to say what you are going to say and damn the consequences. You will never apologize for anything nor will you accept anyone else's apology. You're just too tough for that. And you're never, ever wrong. That's OK I guess, but it strikes me as a bit immature. We should be able to agree on how to disagree. Or none it will make any difference at all and there would be no point to posting anything, ever.

Cougar is right. There are Internet places where flames are the norm and nobody thinks twice about it. And usually there is little real information being exchanged. Nobody learns much, the whole discussion is about people's opinions about each other. Before I started posting here, I admit I enjoyed the contentious threads. And I still do as long as the discussion does not contain profanity or outright personal attacks. I am fond of logic and expect statements to be supportable by evidence. I agree with D. Epstein, that the art of a well-worded insult is not prevalent in these forums. But I have seen a few of them. It's possible to express dissatisfaction with someone or something without resorting to the kind of nonsense going on here all to frequently lately. This forum has rules intended to encourage rational and civilized discourse. And accepting someone's apology for breaking those rules is not wrong.

So there. I said it. And I probably took to long in doing it. Please feel free to flame away and call me whatever you like. I don't care what you call me. Just make sure you can prove it. And do it rationally and with words that are acceptable according to the guidelines of this forum. I just want everyone to play by the rules of civilized discourse that we all agreed to when we joined this community. There is still plenty of room for differences of opinion and strong feelings. There is no room for profanity and personal attacks. And apologizing or accepting an apology for breaking those rules is not wrong. Let's see some rational talk here. I'm waiting. And don't expect me to apologize for anything I've said here. I don't need to.

Paracelsus
 
Para

Omigod!
You might have said something really worthwhile.........but I lost interest less than halfway through. Might try again tomorrow.
But, really, mate, you are more circumlocutory than Cougar, himself.
The best communications are those that require the least efforts to absorb.

I am sure that I am going to have to apologize for this.......but you blokes are gonna love me for it. Right ?

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
If apologies are going to be banned then I want to take this opportunity to apologize in advance for any thing that I might say in the future that will offend someone.

I promise I won't do it the next time.

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Hoodoo

When you arrive at the fork in the road, take it.
Yogi Berra
 
Hoodoo

Sorry (oops)
too late for an apology.
But you are a big person to have offered it.
In fact, you are a REALLY big person and are, hereby, nominated for a Nobel Peace prize.
Lots of luck.

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
Brian,

I know you're right. I've just been stewing about this all day and wanted to be Very clear about what I meant. I wrote it mostly for me, to get my own thought straight about this. If you don't want to read it, fine by me. Please, no apology necessary.

Paracelsus
(Was that better?)
 
Para

you know....the best apologies are the ones that are not necessary
smile.gif


But, really, my suggestion that I might owe you one was a joke. Your post was, really, over the top and begging for a touch of satire. I only meant to add the satire.
(a deleted "sorry" for the sake of consistency) definitely nothing personal or lasting...kinda remember hearing that from my last several girl friends ....mmm ?

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
Brian,

I think it was very obvious that no more words were needed. Including these. I'm done with this thread now.
 
I try to "moderate" with a relatively light touch, and the custom seems to be to lock threads that get out of hand (or start out that way) rather than deleting ugly stuff. I wonder if it would be better to just delete ugly stuff without further verbiage, and explain the deletion to the author if he e-mails a protest. Maybe that's better than leaving stuff up that the author's may regret, and then having a follow-up apology thread that sometimes turns into a continuation of the ill-feeling.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
James

I just deleted a very long (for me) post in response to your's.
I decided that I was prepared to trust your judgement on this .......but I REALLY worry about your successor's judgement.
Ah, well.....I suppose that's life.

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
Brian, it was an attempt at a joke. But don't worry, we can start a Smart Ass Forum just for you!!!

------------------
"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
L6

For Goshsakes.....And I wasn't joking ?

You decided that because I didn't put in a smiley the way you did ?


Didn't see a
smile.gif
in either post.

AND I find your "smartass forum" post personally offensive. And it seems to have been deliberate.
Grow up !

My (sincere) apologies to other members....I was not going to let that one go.

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
Lets think back to other popular forums.
REC DOT KNIVES... If this forum continues the way it is now we will have the same thing that we had in that forum. FLAME CITY.....
I feel folks should be able to air the feelings..
I dont feel this should be up for public debate if its slander to another person no matter what the situation. Do you think PUBLIC FIGHTING , FINGER POINTING is a good thing?
I was involved in a situation a few weeks back that has left me unhappy with this situation. I felt like I lost my mind and I am ashamed of myself. It leaves me unhappy about posting here anymore. Why should I post in a forum where a flame war will break out? Its not worth it. I think its great to have open debate .. I feel its BS to have open slander and finger pointing ect..
I understand whinning and bitching. Thats what you have a mate or a momma and dadda for.

This forum was set up to be the knife capital of the world. For the last few months it seems to be turning into rec dot knives
to me ... YUCK...... IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT?
As for me I dont need this crap in my life.
Im here to talk about knives and learn more about how we as people can make sure we perserve the freedom to carry knives. I like to hear about improvments, new products and new fangeled ideas.
This forum babysitter- Im sorry stuff, I get away with it all the time at home .. isnt good enough IMHO.
Before you say all that nasty crap about someone or some improper wrong doing.. Wait a week .. read a book on diplomacy, read the good book then come back and talk like a human being ...... not a
BUTT HEAD. The whinny baby crap is BS..

Another thing .. if you have a bitch with a manufacturer or a knifemaker why not email them in person? Or call these folks.
Thats the way NORMAL human beings act.
If you cant come to terms with a problem, or they do a great of taking care of the problem then post it in the good bad and ugly.
Computers make us a brave. We have no harm to face for our wrong doing. But remember... every DOG has there day... You may not pay for what you do now, but you will in another way later..

Have a great day



------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06 December 1999).]
 
Some things to think about before we submit an unhappy post -

Would I say that in a board meeting of an organization I'm a member of? And would the chair call me "out of order" if I did?

Can it wait overnight? Try typing your zinger in Notebook and saving it, and reading it the next day and imagine that you're a neutral forum reader reading some other guy's zinger.

Would you call somebody a liar or a thief, or compare him to the positive end of the alimentary canal, to his face? When he's carrying a knife? No? Don't do it on the Forum.

And observe good parliamentary procedure. Maybe I should have a keyboard macro for this. In a debate, address your remarks to the assembly, or to the chair, and not to the previous speaker.

Which reminds me of a story from a couple or three decades back. . . . The Israeli Knesset has a reputation as one of the "livelier" parliaments out there. A junior member said, in a heated debate, "Half the members of this house are jackasses!" The chair called him out of order and demanded that he apologize, which he did: "I apologize. Half the members of this house are not jackasses."

Play nice . . . .
smile.gif



------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
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