Bagwell Style Fighter

Paul,
I understand your point and am very careful to give the originator of the design due credit and will not be critical of it. In this case, I have no reason to be critical of Mr Bagwells design. I would like to speak to him myself and let him know my postition in making a knife of similar style and design. I wont take his design and make it a regular offering. The knife has my name on it and is not a copy in any strict sense.

I do like to make at least one knife of similar design as some of the legends. For two reasons. One, to challenge myself and two, to learn what the maker and designer is thinking when he incorporated the all of features of his knives that sets them apart, making them unique and recognizable. You can only get so much from reading.

I made a Fighter along the lines of Mr Moran's ST-24 a while back, for example.
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This certainly has given me something to think about. From what I know of you Paul, you would not be inflamatory and I've tried to express my thoughts and to do it in the same spirit. Believe me, I'm willing to learn with out it getting out of hand. :) Thanks, Lin
 
'forbidden ground' is a bit of a subjective term, strongly worded.

In many Artistic endeavours, it is a part of the learning process to attempt to duplicate the work of masters, alive or dead. Gets one outside of one's box as it were.

Now, it might be a different story if Lin set up a sweat shop in a third world country to produce knives of someone else's design, but that is most certainly not the case here!

That this is Lin's first MS stamped knife appears at first blush to be a real homage to Bill Bagwell, and I would think that would be a flattering thing for Mr. Bagwell, but I'm speculating.

From my perspective, a polished finish would bring the knife's true beauty out:thumbup:
 
I can see Paul's point on this matter and I am sure that this being the first knife he has graced his MS stamp with Lin's intentions where to pay homeage to one of the founding members of the ABS and greatest bladesmiths of are time IMHO. But I would hate to see some one make this a regular offering without express approval from Bill himself. The man has toiled hard and long to work out his design and reason for doing things and he is still active and working . I am pleased to see Bill getting the kind of attention and flattery that he deserves. But in the end there will only be one real Helle's Belle and some guy in Texas that likes to go hunting and pound out wicked pointy things is the guy that makes them.
 
Just my opinion of course, but I think it's flattering and a honor to a maker for another maker such as Lin to make a similar knife as long as they idenify it as such. Which Lin did.

Besides, it's by no means a duplication IMO.
 
My good friends Joe and Paul have raised the question of homage/reproduction, and all that entails.

Now, from where I sit, from a purely aesthetic viewpoint, the Hell's Belle is not a very attractive design....might be the best fighting knife ever designed....don't really care, not for me.......Have a LOT of friends that think it is the cat's meow, Joe included, otherwise he wouldn't have been using BladeForums as a pulpit to beat the drum for Bill Bagwell's work...not something that I would do, but hey, that's what makes a horserace.

If I was Lin, would have contacted Bill and asked if he had a problem with me making a homage Hell's Belle....it's just a courtesy that I like to extend when possible.

That excluded, I think Lin made a fine homage to Bill's design.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Mr. Long, to offer such an inflamatory statement and then refuse to discuss the matter strikes me as unfair. If you won't discuss, explain or defend your position, then you shouldn't bring it up.

Mr. Rhea, it is a great piece done in the spirit of hunderds of years of knifemaking. I particularly like the fact that its a beutiful stag handled knife that is NOT damascus, but good old clean steel.

Many makers have done knives in another's style in order to learn, challenge themselves or to just enjoy a great design. It's part of the cutlery tradition and in no way shape or form is it forbidden ground. Mr. Long just doesn't understand.

Our western society recognizes that "copying" is a great way to bring human society forward. That's why patents and copyrights have expiration dates.
 
Very nice, Lin.
Now for my comments as a maker (and a recovering lawyer) on "copying" other makers.;)
1. If we didn't take our inspiration from other makers work, then we wouldn't have very many knifemakers out there. Where would we be today if people didn't "copy" ideas from guys like Bob Loveless? There aren't a whole lot of things left to discover about the knife after all these millenia.
2. Many knifemakers don't seem to mind all that much that people take inspiration from their work. The obvious line is if someone tries to use their name and pass product off as their work. The rest of it is kind of a gray area and really up to the makers.
3. In the case of a truly innovative (as opposed to derivative) design, like a cool new locking mechanism, the original designer has the option of patenting it and keeping to themselves, licensing the design to others, allowing limited "free licensing" use by fellow makers and pay to play licensing for production companies, or just throw it out there for everyone to use as they see fit.
My point being that you can't generalize about this subject without knowing how the specific knifemaker feels about it. These days, it seems that a lot of makers are not so concerned about "trade secrets" or such esoteric concepts as "trade dress" They are obviously concerned about the misuse of their name as it relates to someone passing off counterfeit work or the use of specific protected design features that are, in and of themselves, a potentially lucrative source of revenue, but I don't think that most makers get into as much of a tizzie about work that is specifically inspired by their designs. Obviously, there are makers out their who automatically have their attorney dash off cease and desist leters if they even think another person is even remotely thinking about the makers ideas in the bathroom late at night, and likewise, there are the rare makers who just flat out steal designs from others with no credit given and no remorse, but both of those guys are few and far between from what I have seen..If all else fails, just ask the maker how he feels about such things:D
 
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jdm61 said:
Obviously, there are makers out their who automatically have their attorney dash off cease and desist leters if they even think another person is even remotely thinking about the makers ideas in the bathroom late at night, and likewise, there are the rare makers who just flat out steal designs from others with no credit given and no remorse, but both of those guys are few and far between from what I have seen..If all else fails, just ask the maker how he feels about such things:D
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That didn't happen, and might be the bone of contention, which is why I said communication with the original creator of this unique design would have been the decent thing to do, at least considerate.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks for the comments guys. I dont think Paul had any ill intentions when he spoke freely. I understand his meaning and am not offended. In fact, I see his and Steven's point regarding courtesy. I should have made an effort to contact Mr Bagwell first. I have taken steps to correct that asap. There is always time for courtesy. Lin
 
lwrhea said:
Thanks for the comments guys. I dont think Paul had any ill intentions when he spoke freely. I understand his meaning and am not offended. In fact, I see his and Steven's point regarding courtesy. I should have made an effort to contact Mr Bagwell first. I have taken steps to correct that asap. There is always time for courtesy. Lin
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Lin, this post (the quote) sums it all up. I had no ill intentions. I still will not be drawn into a flame war, NOT EVEN BY BROWNSHOE. I do think the courtesy factor is paramount. Thanks for understanding.

Paul
 
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Kohai999 said:
That didn't happen, and might be the bone of contention, which is why I said communication with the original creator of this unique design would have been the decent thing to do, at least considerate.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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True. I was just trying to make some general points. In both my former and current lives, I have seen numerous examples of approved homage or use of specific mechanical or stylistic features and one outright case of misappropriation and promotion in a magazine of copyrighted design from one of my former clients. See if you can guess which one all parties walked away from unhappy?;)
 
From my perspective, it is the most sincere form of praise when one maker tries to execute a recognizable design of another maker, so long as credit is given to the originator, as was done here. If at some point in the distant future a newer maker proudly posted his rendition of a Pinnock knife, I would be positively tickled pink - probably more so than winning any "Best _____ " show award.

It would say a lot of things. First, it would say that I had managed to create something that, in the massivley crowded custom knife landscape, stood apart as recognizably mine. Second, it would say that in addition to being unique, it was something so valued and admired by that maker that he was willing to put the time and effort into creating a piece of his own, in MY style. Heady stuff, that.

I think if Lin were looking to make this style a regular offering, the prior blessing of the originator would be mandatory. But this - a single piece clearly intended (by the manner of presentation) to honour the work of another maker? Nope. Not from where I sit.

Roger
 
I simply don't see the argument here. Mr. Rhea clearly gave credit to the original author of this blade but in a sense didn't every knifemaker stand on the shoulders of others before them or were there some knifemakers that were born and raised without ever having seen another knife to influence them..even a little bit?

Did Mr. Rhea stamp his knife "Bagwell" and try to pass it off as one of Bill's? No, he didn't.

Could a collector somehow be fooled into thinking he was buying a Bagwell when in fact he was buying a Rhea? Sure but only a very stupid one. I maintain that when it comes to purchasing blades at these levels, people do their homework before dropping a grand or more.

To the Bagwell purist I offer that even Mr. Bagwell's knife, with slight variances, is not all that different than most any other bowies out there. The clip might be longer, the handle a coffin or stag shape, maybe it's a little slimmer but the bottom line is that is still a bowie knife that's basic design has been around since long before Mr. Bagwell first swung a hammer.

I think it is a testament to Mr. Bagwell that someone recognizes a style that he is known for and challenges himself to try to create one. You might as well go to any Karate studio in the world and call all the students copy-cats because they are all practicing the same exact forms as the legendary masters..not to eclipse the master but to someday have him looked upon as having tried to be as good.

This is knifemaking/collecting, not corporate espionage folks.
 
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RogerP said:
From my perspective, it is the most sincere form of praise when one maker tries to execute a recognizable design of another maker, so long as credit is given to the originator, as was done here. If at some point in the distant future a newer maker proudly posted his rendition of a Pinnock knife, I would be positively tickled pink - probably more so than winning any "Best _____ " show award.

It would say a lot of things. First, it would say that I had managed to create something that, in the massivley crowded custom knife landscape, stood apart as recognizably mine. Second, it would say that in addition to being unique, it was something so valued and admired by that maker that he was willing to put the time and effort into creating a piece of his own, in MY style. Heady stuff, that.

I think if Lin were looking to make this style a regular offering, the prior blessing of the originator would be mandatory. But this - a single piece clearly intended (by the manner of presentation) to honour the work of another maker? Nope. Not from where I sit.

Roger
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I'm with Roger on this one. I don't believe a blessing was required as a matter of course or even as a courtesy for this single piece. If this is going to become a standard Rhea model then IMO, a conversation should probably take place.

If every maker who has produced a Loveless style knife is seeking permission, then no wonder Bob Loveless doesn't want a computer to receive e-mails. ;) :D

I'm sure everyone who makes a Sendero style hunter doesn't contact Jerry for approval. Why is this any different?
 
Kevin Jones said:
I'm with Roger on this one. I don't believe a blessing was required as a matter of course or even as a courtesy for this single piece. If this is going to become a standard Rhea model then IMO, a conversation should probably take place.

I'm sure everyone who makes a Sendero style hunter doesn't contact Jerry for approval. Why is this any different?
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Does production of a knife design that a maker has labored to create automatically confer approval of even one "homage"? I think not.

Maybe Bill Bagwell (rightfully) considers the Hell's Belle to be his personal design, one that he HAS licensed to production houses, and a simple letter or phone call requesting approval would be appreciated, if not outright necessary.

As Lin said, there is ALWAYS time for courtesy....and I would state for the record that those who don't get that were not raised right...it doesn't take much effort, and shows a simple decency.



Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Kohai999 said:
Does production of a knife design that a maker has labored to create automatically confer approval of even one "homage"? I think not.

Maybe Bill Bagwell (rightfully) considers the Hell's Belle to be his personal design, one that he HAS licensed to production houses, and a simple letter or phone call requesting approval would be appreciated, if not outright necessary.

As Lin said, there is ALWAYS time for courtesy....and I would state for the record that those who don't get that were not raised right...it doesn't take much effort, and shows a simple decency.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Of course, there's always time for courtesy, however I don't see this as the "Big Deal" you do and just for the record I have been raised just fine.

If the fighter in question had a flat disk or double fighter guard and Lin would have not mentioned Bill Bagwell in his opening post would we even be having this discussion? NO, as the knife would just be recognized as another great looking Lin Rhea fighter.
This is all about the guard.
It's not like Lin's version of the Moran ST-24 shown above where several features distinguish it as a representation of the Moran design.
 
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